September 2013 rumored list leak

Hippocampus wrote:

Wynn wrote:

I do believe I did state my reasoning in my previous post but to be clear;
I have a problem with soo much change. If they wanted to hit sooo many decks, ok, fine. I am ok with slow. But not only did they hit decks they hit staples(heavy) which again I can live with, no granted I am not happy about.
The kicker the true kicker is cards like Diva(and meh, on mermails, I think hitting dragoons, sphere and marksman would have been just as vaible without killing fun decks) M7, Shock master(Shock master was a completely fine card). These hits destroy decks I like, and it gives me less to work with. I like those cards there didn't derseve the hit. I was sad about sangan yes but the thing is, sangan while also may not have truely earned the spot to me, he was 1 card. And I actually liked finding out that a few decks worked better without him. I like learning that, but to lose sooo much. I gives me less to work with, not more.

Oh and I would be happy to still duel in a tournment, but unfortently my mind on "Soley an OCG player" will and has not changed, for this format, with the exception of maybe a deck or to out of curiousity, though unlikely.

Hmm... well, not trying to offend you by saying this, but if the only reason you don't want to play under the list is because they hurt decks you like, then it sounds a bit selfish to me lol. That's just like last year, when my friend just quit playing the game because they limited REDMD and banned Future Fusion. The thing is, the banlist is as important to the game as the rest of the rules are, and there's not much we can do about it except to try to adapt. I mean, I have my problems with the state of the game and there are a few things I don't like, but I still keep playing it. But you can technically play with whatever format and cards you want, as long as you find others who are willing to play with you. So like I said, if you want to play OCG, that's fine.

That reminds me... I have to add something to the tournament thread. ...If people are ever interested in getting it going, that is -_-

How is player prefrense selfess?
Adapting an OP deck to a new format is understaible, but losing not OP cards to fun decks is not the same thing lol.
It is a game, a game is ment to be fun, when decks I like aren't vaible because ok cards are hit, I don't approve. To me I disagree with sangan in the same basic way but I am willing to adapt to 1 card. The TCG list though hit more then 10 cards that didn't need to be touched. So since OCG list is good I plan to play it. lol

This is simiar to your OCC, I like the idea of unique combos And losing cards that allow such combos makes the game less fun. I don't have an issue with trying to beat OP decks with my fun decks, I actually like trying that. So if there are attepting to slow the entire game down by killing anything that could be epic, well there are also killing my gusto.I would prefer them not touching my gusto or the other powerful decks.

PS I will find it sooo funny if in december the TCG switches back to the OCG list

Wynn wrote:

How is player prefrense selfess?
Adapting an OP deck to a new format is understaible, but losing not OP cards to fun decks is not the same thing lol.
It is a game, a game is ment to be fun, when decks I like aren't vaible because ok cards are hit, I don't approve. To me I disagree with sangan in the same basic way but I am willing to adapt to 1 card. The TCG list though hit more then 10 cards that didn't need to be touched. So since OCG list is good :)I plan to play it. lol

This is simiar to your OCC, I like the idea of unique combos And losing cards that allow such combos makes the game less fun. I don't have an issue with trying to beat OP decks with my fun decks, I actually like trying that. So if there are attepting to slow the entire game down by killing anything that could be epic, well there are also killing my gusto.I would prefer them not touching my gusto or the other powerful decks.

Well the thing about the hits they made is that it affects EVERY deck, not just the fun decks or just the top decks. Almost every deck ran Heavy Storm and Monster Reborn, and I'd hope your deck doesn't rely solely on those cards (A Monster Reborn spam deck would actually be funny though XD). Pretty much, everything that was limited/banned on the list was either OP by itself or not OP but used in an OP deck. The only card I can think of that is "not OP and only run in fun decks" on this list is M7 (and Mind Augus and Dewloren, but you didn't seem to be bothered with those). So, okay, I agree that hitting M7 was a bad idea. But the rest...? You gotta give them credit that they at least thought about this one, unlike banlists in the past  

And the CCG is an entirely different game altogether because all the cards are different.

Wynn wrote:

PS I will find it sooo funny if in december the TCG switches back to the OCG list

That would be hilarious lol but don't forget the OCG is changing in December too, so they'll probably come to some consensus. Which I have high hopes about, actually.

Hippocampus wrote:

Wynn wrote:

How is player prefrense selfess?
Adapting an OP deck to a new format is understaible, but losing not OP cards to fun decks is not the same thing lol.
It is a game, a game is ment to be fun, when decks I like aren't vaible because ok cards are hit, I don't approve. To me I disagree with sangan in the same basic way but I am willing to adapt to 1 card. The TCG list though hit more then 10 cards that didn't need to be touched. So since OCG list is good :)I plan to play it. lol

This is simiar to your OCC, I like the idea of unique combos And losing cards that allow such combos makes the game less fun. I don't have an issue with trying to beat OP decks with my fun decks, I actually like trying that. So if there are attepting to slow the entire game down by killing anything that could be epic, well there are also killing my gusto.I would prefer them not touching my gusto or the other powerful decks.

Well the thing about the hits they made is that it affects EVERY deck, not just the fun decks or just the top decks. Almost every deck ran Heavy Storm and Monster Reborn, and I'd hope your deck doesn't rely solely on those cards (A Monster Reborn spam deck would actually be funny though XD). Pretty much, everything that was limited/banned on the list was either OP by itself or not OP but used in an OP deck. The only card I can think of that is "not OP and only run in fun decks" on this list is M7 (and Mind Augus and Dewloren, but you didn't seem to be bothered with those). So, okay, I agree that hitting M7 was a bad idea. But the rest...? You gotta give them credit that they at least thought about this one, unlike banlists in the past  

And the CCG is an entirely different game altogether because all the cards are different.

Wynn wrote:

PS I will find it sooo funny if in december the TCG switches back to the OCG list

That would be hilarious lol but don't forget the OCG is changing in December too, so they'll probably come to some consensus. Which I have high hopes about, actually.

lol well the thing as I mentioned is I don't like it harming every deck. I like the OCG list.
As I said it wasn't heavy or reborn is was heavy reborn "AND" everythign else.
And yes dewloren and mind augus did bother me, actually. I just didn't say it lol.
No I am not giving them credit, the banlist doesn't need to be brutal, it should be slow and the fact they intend to change it again in dec means ever more could they have been slow. Such as letting mal to 3 without hitting diva, statos, or M7. If they think mal at 3 is too strong with those 3 then the game would show this in dec and then it could be hit. But at least while waiting we could see such. Not even being allowed to try bothers me. It doesn't give me more plays but less.

See I am the kind of guy that is fine with banlists like "when inzketors got a free pass for a format" I don't like inzektors, but I was fine with that. Why? Cuz they were new, they may have been strong to strong but they earned there 15 min. And then there were hit. I liked the challenge of taking them on .

I actually in the same way expected spellbooks and e dragons not to get such a hit. And I was fine with that. But they were a bit extreme so I wasn't against them being hit either. lol.

Wynn wrote:

lol well the thing as I mentioned is I don't like it harming every deck. I like the OCG list.
As I said it wasn't heavy or reborn is was heavy reborn "AND" everythign else.
And yes dewloren and mind augus did bother me, actually. I just didn't say it lol.
No I am not giving them credit, the banlist doesn't need to be brutal, it should be slow and the fact they intend to change it again in dec means ever more could they have been slow. Such as letting mal to 3 without hitting diva, statos, or M7. If they think mal at 3 is too strong with those 3 then the game would show this in dec and then it could be hit. But at least while waiting we could see such. Not even being allowed to try bothers me. It doesn't give me more plays but less.

See I am the kind of guy that is fine with banlists like "when inzketors got a free pass for a format" I don't like inzektors, but I was fine with that. Why? Cuz they were new, they may have been strong to strong but they earned there 15 min. And then there were hit. I liked the challenge of taking them on .

I actually in the same way expected spellbooks and e dragons not to get such a hit. And I was fine with that. But they were a bit extreme so I wasn't against them being hit either. lol.

Well that's where you and I differ, mate... when I see a one-sided or unfair deck, I don't want to play with or against it because I know it won't be a fun game. Mindlessly beating your opponent without giving them any chance to come back is just as boring to me as losing in that way. I like duels that are even and give both players an equal chance of winning. And I also like personalization; the game has so many cards and deck types, and the more that can see play and compete, the better. That's why I agree with the majority of staples getting hit like Bottomless, Torrential, Reborn, Avarice, etc.; it allows you to think more carefully about what cards to select for your deck and potentially force you to try new cards you've never thought about before. This will also promote diversity among techs, since different people will think of different cards or ratios of cards to use, even when using the same deck. Even stuff like Shock Master... since everyone who can rank 4 xyz ran him, taking him out of the game forces you to try different cards in its place. I mean, yeah, he's not broken... but neither was Divine Wind of Mist Valley to be honest

And to be honest, Prophecies didn't get hit very much... they only lost Judgment. So I still think they're a strong deck that is fairly consistent and will still be played this format (in both OCG and TCG).

Hippocampus wrote:

Wynn wrote:

lol well the thing as I mentioned is I don't like it harming every deck. I like the OCG list.
As I said it wasn't heavy or reborn is was heavy reborn "AND" everythign else.
And yes dewloren and mind augus did bother me, actually. I just didn't say it lol.
No I am not giving them credit, the banlist doesn't need to be brutal, it should be slow and the fact they intend to change it again in dec means ever more could they have been slow. Such as letting mal to 3 without hitting diva, statos, or M7. If they think mal at 3 is too strong with those 3 then the game would show this in dec and then it could be hit. But at least while waiting we could see such. Not even being allowed to try bothers me. It doesn't give me more plays but less.

See I am the kind of guy that is fine with banlists like "when inzketors got a free pass for a format" I don't like inzektors, but I was fine with that. Why? Cuz they were new, they may have been strong to strong but they earned there 15 min. And then there were hit. I liked the challenge of taking them on .

I actually in the same way expected spellbooks and e dragons not to get such a hit. And I was fine with that. But they were a bit extreme so I wasn't against them being hit either. lol.

Well that's where you and I differ, mate... when I see a one-sided or unfair deck, I don't want to play with or against it because I know it won't be a fun game. Mindlessly beating your opponent without giving them any chance to come back is just as boring to me as losing in that way. I like duels that are even and give both players an equal chance of winning. And I also like personalization; the game has so many cards and deck types, and the more that can see play and compete, the better. That's why I agree with the majority of staples getting hit like Bottomless, Torrential, Reborn, Avarice, etc.; it allows you to think more carefully about what cards to select for your deck and potentially force you to try new cards you've never thought about before. This will also promote diversity among techs, since different people will think of different cards or ratios of cards to use, even when using the same deck. Even stuff like Shock Master... since everyone who can rank 4 xyz ran him, taking him out of the game forces you to try different cards in its place. I mean, yeah, he's not broken... but neither was Divine Wind of Mist Valley to be honest

And to be honest, Prophecies didn't get hit very much... they only lost Judgment. So I still think they're a strong deck that is fairly consistent and will still be played this format (in both OCG and TCG).

lol I know what you mean but ya phases it sort of carelessly. lol or maybe I didn't know what ya ment. lol
Want you and your opponent to have an equal chance of winning is well not likely ever. Not in this game, because unless your using the excat same deck a possible tatical advantage may accure, even if both decks power seems near eachother. Want equal? Poker is much better. lol.
Though I am not saying I want to mindly crush people I agree that is boring. But in the same way I do like fightning my way to a win. That is the appeal to yugioh. And no, not every deck tha ran 4xyz made shock instantly. I mean first are they making other ranks? Or synchros? shock could easily be destroyed too. If shock had a problem it wasn't 1 of him it was 2 of him at the same time. So banned was in no way needed.
D wind was increadible powerful and made many FTK possible lol. I am in no way suprised it was hit. I don't really care one way or the other, limited means it can't be abused but still attempted. Fine by mean .
I am very keen on limited. If a card is ok at 1 then 1 is where it should always be. 0 only should apply to cards that can't be allowed at even 1.

About staples to, they should never be mindless. Just cuz a card is good doesn't mean it should be used, A deck needs to be able to use the staple correctly too. Torriental, bottomless, compuls, avarice, heavy or reborn these are all cards that had room in one deck, but not always another. It may suprise you but yes I had decks that didn't run heavy, I had decs that don't run torriental lol. I even at another point had a deck that didn't run reborn. lol

Wynn wrote:

lol I know what you mean but ya phases it sort of carelessly. lol or maybe I didn't know what ya ment. lol
Want you and your opponent to have an equal chance of winning is well not likely ever. Not in this game, because unless your using the excat same deck a possible tatical advantage may accure, even if both decks power seems near eachother. Want equal? Poker is much better. lol.
Though I am not saying I want to mindly crush people I agree that is boring. But in the same way I do like fightning my way to a win. That is the appeal to yugioh.

But see, I do agree with that. Maybe I should be the one to clarify lol.

If indeed you and your opponent are using the same deck, but one player is more skilled/strategic than the other, then that person will win more often. So the game relies more on strategy than on luck. Now, if every deck in the game had the same power level, and every deck in the game had an equal chance of winning IF USED BY PEOPLE OF THE SAME SKILL LEVEL, then it would be a very fair and balanced game. Yet, as you said, the victor would be determined by who played their cards right and who knew the better strategies of their deck. Luck would still be a factor, but it would not be as prominent as it is in today's game, and you would still be "fighting for a win" because your opponent is trying to outsmart you through strategy, not waiting to topdeck a lucksack staple.

That would be the ideal Yugioh to me. You could say that you play with any deck or archetype, and your opponent will respect you for it, because that deck or archetype has the ability to compete with any other deck or archetype, and it comes down to choosing what strategy is your favorite. You do have that in the game now, but there are still clear tier levels between decks that consistently win over the majority of others. This is mostly due to power creep, but the banlist also plays a role in this. Its role should be to restrict cards that "break" decks, such as with the baby dragon and spellbook bans this format, but in the past it has not usually done this, such as leaving Inzektors and Wind-ups untouched last year so they could sell product dominate tournaments. With decks like these, the game can be virtually decided before the duel even starts because the deck can win just by the way it's built. So someone who has never played a game before can beat an expert just because he/she has a top tier deck. That doesn't seem fair at all to me. I agree that it may be refreshing to beat those OP decks, but it'd just be better if they didn't exist at all.

Yeah, this may be a bit offtopic, but

Wynn wrote:

And no, not every deck tha ran 4xyz made shock instantly. I mean first are they making other ranks? Or synchros? shock could easily be destroyed too. If shock had a problem it wasn't 1 of him it was 2 of him at the same time. So banned was in no way needed.

I never said they made him instantly. I just said he's always in the deck. He's usually made when pushing for game, not on the first turn lol. So by then he's not easily destroyed, because the game's almost if not over at that point. He's very versatile, but he usually only took up one slot. So limiting him would not make the game any different than if he was unlimited. Kinda like with Brionac, and look where he is...

Wynn wrote:

D wind was increadible powerful and made many FTK possible lol. I am in no way suprised it was hit. I don't really care one way or the other, limited means it can't be abused but still attempted. Fine by mean .

Well I thought it was Birdman's fault. If you can still do the combo with only 1 Birdman but 3 D Wind then I'll agree with ya.

Wynn wrote:

I am very keen on limited. If a card is ok at 1 then 1 is where it should always be. 0 only should apply to cards that can't be allowed at even 1.

Agreed. Which is why cards like Heavy, Gorz, Grand Mole, Whirlwind, and Solemn should have stayed at 1.

Wynn wrote:

About staples to, they should never be mindless. Just cuz a card is good doesn't mean it should be used, A deck needs to be able to use the staple correctly too. Torriental, bottomless, compuls, avarice, heavy or reborn these are all cards that had room in one deck, but not always another. It may suprise you but yes I had decks that didn't run heavy, I had decs that don't run torriental lol. I even at another point had a deck that didn't run reborn. lol

Oh, this is no surprise to me. In fact, my Gravekeeper's deck doesn't run Reborn, Heavy, or Avarice (another reason why I think they're going to be strong this format - they didn't lose much at all). But the majority of decks do run them, though, you can't deny that.

The thing that sets Heavy apart from the other cards, though, is its strategic value. Reborn, Torrential, Compulsory, and even Dark Hole, can be topdecked and completely screw over your opponent no matter when they're drawn. Avarice can be grouped into that category depending on the conditions of the duel. Heavy Storm, however, does not have the power to do this, because you actually have to think instead of mindlessly playing it, so that's why I don't think it should be banned.

Hippocampus wrote:

Wynn wrote:

lol I know what you mean but ya phases it sort of carelessly. lol or maybe I didn't know what ya ment. lol
Want you and your opponent to have an equal chance of winning is well not likely ever. Not in this game, because unless your using the excat same deck a possible tatical advantage may accure, even if both decks power seems near eachother. Want equal? Poker is much better. lol.
Though I am not saying I want to mindly crush people I agree that is boring. But in the same way I do like fightning my way to a win. That is the appeal to yugioh.

But see, I do agree with that. Maybe I should be the one to clarify lol.

If indeed you and your opponent are using the same deck, but one player is more skilled/strategic than the other, then that person will win more often. So the game relies more on strategy than on luck. Now, if every deck in the game had the same power level, and every deck in the game had an equal chance of winning IF USED BY PEOPLE OF THE SAME SKILL LEVEL, then it would be a very fair and balanced game. Yet, as you said, the victor would be determined by who played their cards right and who knew the better strategies of their deck. Luck would still be a factor, but it would not be as prominent as it is in today's game, and you would still be "fighting for a win" because your opponent is trying to outsmart you through strategy, not waiting to topdeck a lucksack staple.

That would be the ideal Yugioh to me. You could say that you play with any deck or archetype, and your opponent will respect you for it, because that deck or archetype has the ability to compete with any other deck or archetype, and it comes down to choosing what strategy is your favorite. You do have that in the game now, but there are still clear tier levels between decks that consistently win over the majority of others. This is mostly due to power creep, but the banlist also plays a role in this. Its role should be to restrict cards that "break" decks, such as with the baby dragon and spellbook bans this format, but in the past it has not usually done this, such as leaving Inzektors and Wind-ups untouched last year so they could sell product dominate tournaments. With decks like these, the game can be virtually decided before the duel even starts because the deck can win just by the way it's built. So someone who has never played a game before can beat an expert just because he/she has a top tier deck. That doesn't seem fair at all to me. I agree that it may be refreshing to beat those OP decks, but it'd just be better if they didn't exist at all.

Yeah, this may be a bit offtopic, but

Wynn wrote:

And no, not every deck tha ran 4xyz made shock instantly. I mean first are they making other ranks? Or synchros? shock could easily be destroyed too. If shock had a problem it wasn't 1 of him it was 2 of him at the same time. So banned was in no way needed.

I never said they made him instantly. I just said he's always in the deck. He's usually made when pushing for game, not on the first turn lol. So by then he's not easily destroyed, because the game's almost if not over at that point. He's very versatile, but he usually only took up one slot. So limiting him would not make the game any different than if he was unlimited. Kinda like with Brionac, and look where he is...

Wynn wrote:

D wind was increadible powerful and made many FTK possible lol. I am in no way suprised it was hit. I don't really care one way or the other, limited means it can't be abused but still attempted. Fine by mean .

Well I thought it was Birdman's fault. If you can still do the combo with only 1 Birdman but 3 D Wind then I'll agree with ya.

Wynn wrote:

I am very keen on limited. If a card is ok at 1 then 1 is where it should always be. 0 only should apply to cards that can't be allowed at even 1.

Agreed. Which is why cards like Heavy, Gorz, Grand Mole, Whirlwind, and Solemn should have stayed at 1.

Wynn wrote:

About staples to, they should never be mindless. Just cuz a card is good doesn't mean it should be used, A deck needs to be able to use the staple correctly too. Torriental, bottomless, compuls, avarice, heavy or reborn these are all cards that had room in one deck, but not always another. It may suprise you but yes I had decks that didn't run heavy, I had decs that don't run torriental lol. I even at another point had a deck that didn't run reborn. lol

Oh, this is no surprise to me. In fact, my Gravekeeper's deck doesn't run Reborn, Heavy, or Avarice (another reason why I think they're going to be strong this format - they didn't lose much at all). But the majority of decks do run them, though, you can't deny that.

The thing that sets Heavy apart from the other cards, though, is its strategic value. Reborn, Torrential, Compulsory, and even Dark Hole, can be topdecked and completely screw over your opponent no matter when they're drawn. Avarice can be grouped into that category depending on the conditions of the duel. Heavy Storm, however, does not have the power to do this, because you actually have to think instead of mindlessly playing it, so that's why I don't think it should be banned.

I am not as good with the quote button lol.
Actually ya missing a point. You can't have 10 different yet equal decks. The concept is called tatical advantage. And also if ya have equal decks and equal pllayers then luck becomes the most important aspect to who wins.
If ya want a game truely equal I still suggest poker.

If also miss another point I believe or you imply it. That the yugioh company would not hit a deck purely based on selling product. 2 things.
1. There are a business and it is in there best interest to keep people "wanting" to play the game. And they seem to be doing a decent job.
2. They don't make meta, players do. In the same way your thinking an OP decks needs to get hit wouldn't it be unfair for a person not even get a chance to try a deck he genuinly likes just cuz it is strong? Inzektors were and are strong but there pwer was one I liked challenging. E dragons and spellbooks were too strong and look they got hit lol.

And if inzektors didn't exsist it is still a fair bet that ya would be getting beat by a different OP deck. lol The thing is I know you, a person that made a CCG wouldn't be in this game just to win. Your here to have fun. That makes ya a fun player, and a fun player can be good but never in the same way as a competive player. If ya take away a strong deck, then every just prefects the next strongest which unless it is your deck, still leaves ya not winning a tournment lol. Which isn't a bad thing.
Meta is decided by players not konami.

I sort of ment mained him instant on shock. Just cuz they have room for rank4 doesn't mean they felt the need to have shock.
And late game? lol are ya sure ya know what your talking about?
Shock isn't nearly as much of a problem late game as turn 1.
Turn 1 shock kills pratically all your plays espically if it is game 2 and ya know what to call.
In either case 1 shock I don't cnsider problematic for 2 reasons.
1. If by chance 1 shock does lock me as unlikely as it is, then good show of my opponent. They earned it.
2. It is a card easily bluff dodged and killed. Remember the not activating applies to them too. So it can backfire.
If I had any problem with shock it would be fightning 2 of him at the same times since locking be becomes insanely easier.

lol reborn "can" be sacky if you mean stealing a big monster in grave, but this doesn't mean it is "Only" sacky.
Ya know a lot of people think heavy is more sacky then reborn. But heavy has this universal usefulness of making everyone scared to set 4 backrow turn 1. Interesting to see how it goes with that fear gone.
But again I say if it is ok at 1 then leave it at 1. And Reborn was fine at 1 to me. Same with all the cards that got hit only on TCG(to 0).

@Wynn : If you're still butthurt about the TCG banlist, maybe you should reconsider reading this. http://yugioh.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=3275

Kirikaze Fuuma wrote:

@Wynn : If you're still butthurt about the TCG banlist, maybe you should reconsider reading this. http://yugioh.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=3275

Hahaha, what makes ya think I am butthurt? Admittly I don't like the TCG list. But I not sure that qualifies as butthurt.
Me and hipp just having a friendly debate
Oh and I will probably end up making a few random TCG decks, but I still keeping to my Status as OCG player now.

Fumma didn't you prefer OCG also?

Wynn wrote:

I am not as good with the quote button lol.

LOL well your name is easy to type, so I just write it out. When I reply to some others, I have to copy and paste their names lol.

Wynn wrote:

Actually ya missing a point. You can't have 10 different yet equal decks. The concept is called tatical advantage. And also if ya have equal decks and equal pllayers then luck becomes the most important aspect to who wins.
If ya want a game truely equal I still suggest poker.

Again, I never said that the players should be equal, and this would never be the case anyway. Just as with any game, there are those who have been playing the game for a long time or who know the strategies of the game very well and there are those who are more new to the game or who are unfamiliar with the strategies. Also, how many times have you heard someone say that he/she misplayed? Or that he/she had a certain play he/she could have done, but chose to go with a different play instead? In a fair, balanced game, the strategic players who actually think more about how to use their cards (and how to counter their opponent's cards) should fare better than the ones who don't. So if all the decks have equal strength, then the game becomes much more based on strategy because it is up to the player to use the deck correctly. This is ultimately what I would like to see, and from reading Kirikaze's article, it looks like this banlist may be a step in this direction.

Wynn wrote:

If also miss another point I believe or you imply it. That the yugioh company would not hit a deck purely based on selling product. 2 things.
1. There are a business and it is in there best interest to keep people "wanting" to play the game. And they seem to be doing a decent job.
2. They don't make meta, players do. In the same way your thinking an OP decks needs to get hit wouldn't it be unfair for a person not even get a chance to try a deck he genuinly likes just cuz it is strong? Inzektors were and are strong but there pwer was one I liked challenging. E dragons and spellbooks were too strong and look they got hit lol.

1. So are they doing a decent job with the TCG banlist?
2. Yes, but first and foremost the meta is influenced by card design. And your example seems like you're contradicting yourself... you're saying it was fair to hit E Dragons but not to hit Inzektors, when they were both accomplishing the same things in their respective metas? Or are you saying that no one "genuinely" liked E Dragons?

Wynn wrote:

And if inzektors didn't exsist it is still a fair bet that ya would be getting beat by a different OP deck. lol The thing is I know you, a person that made a CCG wouldn't be in this game just to win. Your here to have fun. That makes ya a fun player, and a fun player can be good but never in the same way as a competive player. If ya take away a strong deck, then every just prefects the next strongest which unless it is your deck, still leaves ya not winning a tournment lol. Which isn't a bad thing.
Meta is decided by players not konami.

You're correct here. But you can still be a competitive player in an evenly matched game environment. And because I'm a fun player, even if my deck was OP compared to everyone else's, I would still recognize that and not be opposed to it getting nerfed so other decks could compete. That's why I'm in favor of the bans on Card Destruction and Ultimate Offering; they hurt my decks, but I agree they were OP cards.

Wynn wrote:

I sort of ment mained him instant on shock. Just cuz they have room for rank4 doesn't mean they felt the need to have shock.

Umm, most decks I know did... Gadgets, Geargias, Madolches, Evilswarms, Wind-Ups, Dino Rabbits... they all could and did run him. Hell, my friend ran him in his Glad Beast deck lol. And I even had a space for him in Gravekeeper's too. The only Rank 4 decks who didn't run him were ones that couldn't afford swarming the field that much.

Wynn wrote:

And late game? lol are ya sure ya know what your talking about?
Shock isn't nearly as much of a problem late game as turn 1.
Turn 1 shock kills pratically all your plays espically if it is game 2 and ya know what to call.
In either case 1 shock I don't cnsider problematic for 2 reasons.
1. If by chance 1 shock does lock me as unlikely as it is, then good show of my opponent. They earned it.
2. It is a card easily bluff dodged and killed. Remember the not activating applies to them too. So it can backfire.
If I had any problem with shock it would be fightning 2 of him at the same times since locking be becomes insanely easier.

Hmm, well as I stated, I personally didn't even mind him at 3, especially with Ultimate Offering getting banned. But I don't care if he goes to 0, as it's an indirect hit to the above decks I listed.
And as far as your 2nd reason, that's what made him so skillful in the first place. Hopefully when you activate his effect, you'll know when to use it so that it won't affect you. I doubt anyone would call "Traps" if they had a Warning or something face-down lol.

Wynn wrote:

lol reborn "can" be sacky if you mean stealing a big monster in grave, but this doesn't mean it is "Only" sacky.
Ya know a lot of people think heavy is more sacky then reborn. But heavy has this universal usefulness of making everyone scared to set 4 backrow turn 1. Interesting to see how it goes with that fear gone.
But again I say if it is ok at 1 then leave it at 1. And Reborn was fine at 1 to me. Same with all the cards that got hit only on TCG(to 0).

It's not just about stealing a big monster... you can do so many things with Reborn it's not even funny. I've wanted it to go to 0 since 2011, to be honest. Like I said, Solemn Judgment and Heavy are the only cards I am opposed to getting banned, and Shock Master I don't care either way, but the rest I think are good at 0.

Kirikaze Fuuma wrote:

@Wynn : If you're still butthurt about the TCG banlist, maybe you should reconsider reading this. http://yugioh.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=3275

Great find, and yeah, I think this confirms it. I'm sticking to TCG.

Honestly though, after my duels with Wynn yesterday, I'm having my doubts about Malicious going to 3 now. Card is ridiculous in the right deck. Also,  

Hippocampus wrote:

Wynn wrote:

I am not as good with the quote button lol.

LOL well your name is easy to type, so I just write it out. When I reply to some others, I have to copy and paste their names lol.

Wynn wrote:

Actually ya missing a point. You can't have 10 different yet equal decks. The concept is called tatical advantage. And also if ya have equal decks and equal pllayers then luck becomes the most important aspect to who wins.
If ya want a game truely equal I still suggest poker.

Again, I never said that the players should be equal, and this would never be the case anyway. Just as with any game, there are those who have been playing the game for a long time or who know the strategies of the game very well and there are those who are more new to the game or who are unfamiliar with the strategies. Also, how many times have you heard someone say that he/she misplayed? Or that he/she had a certain play he/she could have done, but chose to go with a different play instead? In a fair, balanced game, the strategic players who actually think more about how to use their cards (and how to counter their opponent's cards) should fare better than the ones who don't. So if all the decks have equal strength, then the game becomes much more based on strategy because it is up to the player to use the deck correctly. This is ultimately what I would like to see, and from reading Kirikaze's article, it looks like this banlist may be a step in this direction.

Wynn wrote:

If also miss another point I believe or you imply it. That the yugioh company would not hit a deck purely based on selling product. 2 things.
1. There are a business and it is in there best interest to keep people "wanting" to play the game. And they seem to be doing a decent job.
2. They don't make meta, players do. In the same way your thinking an OP decks needs to get hit wouldn't it be unfair for a person not even get a chance to try a deck he genuinly likes just cuz it is strong? Inzektors were and are strong but there pwer was one I liked challenging. E dragons and spellbooks were too strong and look they got hit lol.

1. So are they doing a decent job with the TCG banlist?
2. Yes, but first and foremost the meta is influenced by card design. And your example seems like you're contradicting yourself... you're saying it was fair to hit E Dragons but not to hit Inzektors, when they were both accomplishing the same things in their respective metas? Or are you saying that no one "genuinely" liked E Dragons?

Wynn wrote:

And if inzektors didn't exsist it is still a fair bet that ya would be getting beat by a different OP deck. lol The thing is I know you, a person that made a CCG wouldn't be in this game just to win. Your here to have fun. That makes ya a fun player, and a fun player can be good but never in the same way as a competive player. If ya take away a strong deck, then every just prefects the next strongest which unless it is your deck, still leaves ya not winning a tournment lol. Which isn't a bad thing.
Meta is decided by players not konami.

You're correct here. But you can still be a competitive player in an evenly matched game environment. And because I'm a fun player, even if my deck was OP compared to everyone else's, I would still recognize that and not be opposed to it getting nerfed so other decks could compete. That's why I'm in favor of the bans on Card Destruction and Ultimate Offering; they hurt my decks, but I agree they were OP cards.

Wynn wrote:

I sort of ment mained him instant on shock. Just cuz they have room for rank4 doesn't mean they felt the need to have shock.

Umm, most decks I know did... Gadgets, Geargias, Madolches, Evilswarms, Wind-Ups, Dino Rabbits... they all could and did run him. Hell, my friend ran him in his Glad Beast deck lol. And I even had a space for him in Gravekeeper's too. The only Rank 4 decks who didn't run him were ones that couldn't afford swarming the field that much.

Wynn wrote:

And late game? lol are ya sure ya know what your talking about?
Shock isn't nearly as much of a problem late game as turn 1.
Turn 1 shock kills pratically all your plays espically if it is game 2 and ya know what to call.
In either case 1 shock I don't cnsider problematic for 2 reasons.
1. If by chance 1 shock does lock me as unlikely as it is, then good show of my opponent. They earned it.
2. It is a card easily bluff dodged and killed. Remember the not activating applies to them too. So it can backfire.
If I had any problem with shock it would be fightning 2 of him at the same times since locking be becomes insanely easier.

Hmm, well as I stated, I personally didn't even mind him at 3, especially with Ultimate Offering getting banned. But I don't care if he goes to 0, as it's an indirect hit to the above decks I listed.
And as far as your 2nd reason, that's what made him so skillful in the first place. Hopefully when you activate his effect, you'll know when to use it so that it won't affect you. I doubt anyone would call "Traps" if they had a Warning or something face-down lol.

Wynn wrote:

lol reborn "can" be sacky if you mean stealing a big monster in grave, but this doesn't mean it is "Only" sacky.
Ya know a lot of people think heavy is more sacky then reborn. But heavy has this universal usefulness of making everyone scared to set 4 backrow turn 1. Interesting to see how it goes with that fear gone.
But again I say if it is ok at 1 then leave it at 1. And Reborn was fine at 1 to me. Same with all the cards that got hit only on TCG(to 0).

It's not just about stealing a big monster... you can do so many things with Reborn it's not even funny. I've wanted it to go to 0 since 2011, to be honest. Like I said, Solemn Judgment and Heavy are the only cards I am opposed to getting banned, and Shock Master I don't care either way, but the rest I think are good at 0.

Kirikaze Fuuma wrote:

@Wynn : If you're still butthurt about the TCG banlist, maybe you should reconsider reading this. http://yugioh.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=3275

Great find, and yeah, I think this confirms it. I'm sticking to TCG.

Honestly though, after my duels with Wynn yesterday, I'm having my doubts about Malicious going to 3 now. Card is ridiculous in the right deck. Also,  

lol Well I find that TCG isn't bad. I didn't say TCG banlist was bad for business. My point was more directed at how some people think they don't hit cards based on wanting to sell product. I mean banning the babies and judgement are banned. So they will bann stuff as needed even if new. I was saying that they are a business and banning cards to promate play is a good move for that effect. Just cuz it is a good business decesion doesn't mean I like it lol.

No, I am not condicting myself. I stating that there is a fairly noticible difference in the power inzektors had in there rain, compared to the more recent E dragons. The thing they had in common was both hated and desired to be hit by the common person. But Inzektors weren't at the level that dictated they needed to be hit right then. E dragons were. And I think the difference is clear. I mean another example a lot of people talk about Dark worlds needing to be hit. And well OCG hasn't hit anything, about them excatly. Just cuz popular concept is they need to be hit doesn't make it so.

The TCG list still irrates me. One reason is and even after reading fuuma post, a lot of hits seem unneeeded and random. I completely understood the idea of hitting things in prep work of what killing heavy and other stuff was. I get all of that. But for them on one hand kill speed by taking away heavy or take away shock master then give me 3 mal? I find this insulting to me. Slow? I understand, this? I understand partly, don't like it all the same.

I am going to laugh my butt of if in december TCG reverts its list to what ever OCG is lol.
OCG for life.
Though admittly I might make 1 or 3 decks under TCG.

I have a lot of things I can say, but honestly don't feel like typing them all up right now so I'll just say

TCG list>OCG list

OCG list is certainly fine and would've worked, but the TCG's list even with its problems has so much more actual thought and effort clearly put into it, and in ways that in general look like they could potentially actually work for a far more healthy meta.

Not to mention the simple fact that it opens up more variety to both deck and card design, since nearly every deck cant just run the same exact 10+ staples anymore and be perfectly fine.

I had stopped really caring about the Ban List an long time ago...even never checked them out since then~! Found it boring 'cause I enjoy the feel of using those Bannished Cards and dueling against them... I use an few of those Bannished Cards to my hearts content~

ΛΔ wrote:

I have a lot of things I can say, but honestly don't feel like typing them all up right now so I'll just say

TCG list>OCG list

OCG list is certainly fine and would've worked, but the TCG's list even with its problems has so much more actual thought and effort clearly put into it, and in ways that in general look like they could potentially actually work for a far more healthy meta.

Not to mention the simple fact that it opens up more variety to both deck and card design, since nearly every deck cant just run the same exact 10+ staples anymore and be perfectly fine.

Wynn wrote:

Kirikaze Fuuma wrote:

@Wynn : If you're still butthurt about the TCG banlist, maybe you should reconsider reading this. http://yugioh.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=3275

Hahaha, what makes ya think I am butthurt? Admittly I don't like the TCG list. But I not sure that qualifies as butthurt.
Me and hipp just having a friendly debate
Oh and I will probably end up making a few random TCG decks, but I still keeping to my Status as OCG player now.

Fumma didn't you prefer OCG also?

From what I've read here, you've stated that TCG banlist hurt the decks you like. The reason isn't strong enough to switch side to OCG while you're in the TCG region. Me? I personally prefer TCG banlist to OCG. But should this is OCG region, I would use OCG banlist and adapt with that. In short, any banlist is fine with me.

Wynn wrote:

lol Well I find that TCG isn't bad. I didn't say TCG banlist was bad for business. My point was more directed at how some people think they don't hit cards based on wanting to sell product. I mean banning the babies and judgement are banned. So they will bann stuff as needed even if new. I was saying that they are a business and banning cards to promate play is a good move for that effect. Just cuz it is a good business decesion doesn't mean I like it lol.

To me, this list for once seems like it wasn't influenced solely by business or selling product. Sure, there's the Rooster unlimit, but Konami's still making money off of LTGY and Fire Fists with the new tin, yet they limited Spirit and banned all the baby Dragons and Spellbook of Judgment. And they have NEVER hit the top decks this fast. Last year, for example, they hit Inzektors and Wind-Ups in September 2012, but they had been released in the game a year earlier. Comparatively, LTGY only came out a few months ago. I actually think they're taking their playerbase into concern here; otherwise, they wouldn't have made such drastic changes. And this is a GOOD thing, because it means they're listening to us

Wynn wrote:

No, I am not condicting myself. I stating that there is a fairly noticible difference in the power inzektors had in there rain, compared to the more recent E dragons. The thing they had in common was both hated and desired to be hit by the common person. But Inzektors weren't at the level that dictated they needed to be hit right then. E dragons were. And I think the difference is clear. I mean another example a lot of people talk about Dark worlds needing to be hit. And well OCG hasn't hit anything, about them excatly. Just cuz popular concept is they need to be hit doesn't make it so.

The problem with Inzektors, as with Dino Rabbits, Hieratics, and Wind-Ups, is that they could just completely take over the game on any given turn no matter what their setup was. Just draw Dragonfly with Hornet in grave, and you can nuke the opponent's field and Xyz spam the field by only playing said Dragonfly, and unless your opponent happened to have a Chain Disappearance, there was nothing he/she could do about it. I was very active in that format, so I know a lot about what those decks were capable of lol. They most certainly needed to be hit as soon as they were invented practically. It was just not a fair deck. How is this different from Dragon Rulers?

And Dark Worlds were hit; they are losing Card Destruction and an EEV. Last year you could say they were hit when Tour Guide was semi'd. But Dark Worlds were not nearly as consistent as the top decks last year or this year. You can side against them easily, and they have really bad mirror matches. Wind-Ups could destroy them easily with the Hunter loop, Deck Devastation was the only thing they could use to stop Inzektors, and they just straight-up died to Macro decks. I'm pretty sure they're also weak against Dragon Rulers, since, you know, nothing is good against Dragon Rulers

Wynn wrote:

The TCG list still irrates me. One reason is and even after reading fuuma post, a lot of hits seem unneeeded and random. I completely understood the idea of hitting things in prep work of what killing heavy and other stuff was. I get all of that. But for them on one hand kill speed by taking away heavy or take away shock master then give me 3 mal? I find this insulting to me. Slow? I understand, this? I understand partly, don't like it all the same.

You know, you do raise a good point here. Malicious to 3 was really not the best idea after all. Neither was Mezuki to 2, but to a lesser extent. And Whirlwind is happening in OCG too. These changes are definitely not slow for me lol. I guess we'll just have to see what happens.

Milla Lyna wrote:

I had stopped really caring about the Ban List an long time ago...even never checked them out since then~! Found it boring 'cause I enjoy the feel of using those Bannished Cards and dueling against them... I use an few of those Bannished Cards to my hearts content~

Oh, there's nothing wrong with wanting to play with banned cards every so often. In fact, I have a Rescue Cat deck that is very fun to play

The thing is that most people view banned cards as unfair. Some cards create FTK combos that can discourage player interaction entirely, like Magical Scientist or Exchange of the Spirit. Some have basically created their own format, like Chaos Emperor Dragon and Yata-Garasu, while others just break specific decks, like Substitoad or Wind-Up Carrier Zenmaighty. Still others, like Delinquent Duo, Pot of Greed, and yes, even Monster Reborn, just give the player too much advantage and make the game imbalanced. So that's why.

Kirikaze Fuuma wrote:

ΛΔ wrote:

I have a lot of things I can say, but honestly don't feel like typing them all up right now so I'll just say

TCG list>OCG list

OCG list is certainly fine and would've worked, but the TCG's list even with its problems has so much more actual thought and effort clearly put into it, and in ways that in general look like they could potentially actually work for a far more healthy meta.

Not to mention the simple fact that it opens up more variety to both deck and card design, since nearly every deck cant just run the same exact 10+ staples anymore and be perfectly fine.

Wynn wrote:

Kirikaze Fuuma wrote:

@Wynn : If you're still butthurt about the TCG banlist, maybe you should reconsider reading this. http://yugioh.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=3275

Hahaha, what makes ya think I am butthurt? Admittly I don't like the TCG list. But I not sure that qualifies as butthurt.
Me and hipp just having a friendly debate
Oh and I will probably end up making a few random TCG decks, but I still keeping to my Status as OCG player now.

Fumma didn't you prefer OCG also?

From what I've read here, you've stated that TCG banlist hurt the decks you like. The reason isn't strong enough to switch side to OCG while you're in the TCG region. Me? I personally prefer TCG banlist to OCG. But should this is OCG region, I would use OCG banlist and adapt with that. In short, any banlist is fine with me.

So you are in OCG region SWEET
That isn't the main reason I didn't like the TCG banlist but admittly it is one reason it irrated me. I have a very fun deck that isn't really competive and it needs 2 M7 :'(. Thing is, that deck could probably easily take no heavy or no monster reborn, (No avarice would probably be switched for an emeral). And I can't think of why M7 needed to be hit. Even your like was dumbfounded on that point. lol But as I mentioned this isn't the main irrating factor to me.
I like discovering new plays. I like pushing limits. So to me, if a card can exsist at 1, it should exsist at 1 or what ever number it can exsist at. And I think many of the cards were hit uneedly. And since OCG didn't hit nearly as much, yet gave us back a few more things, I find it a much better list.
I did say I could see why TCG list is ok and I will probably build a few decks(Currentling thinking 5 or 6) just cuz there are a few things that look interesting in it. But OCG looks much better to me
Oh and I dont much play if real life of recently so since I am mainly online player figured playing the format of my region is sort of irrelvant. If ya are OCG player though I do hope when ya have free time in the future we could have some nice duels. Not just training deck though, your best against my best all in the spirit of friendly competition of course .

Hippocampus wrote:

Wynn wrote:

lol Well I find that TCG isn't bad. I didn't say TCG banlist was bad for business. My point was more directed at how some people think they don't hit cards based on wanting to sell product. I mean banning the babies and judgement are banned. So they will bann stuff as needed even if new. I was saying that they are a business and banning cards to promate play is a good move for that effect. Just cuz it is a good business decesion doesn't mean I like it lol.

To me, this list for once seems like it wasn't influenced solely by business or selling product. Sure, there's the Rooster unlimit, but Konami's still making money off of LTGY and Fire Fists with the new tin, yet they limited Spirit and banned all the baby Dragons and Spellbook of Judgment. And they have NEVER hit the top decks this fast. Last year, for example, they hit Inzektors and Wind-Ups in September 2012, but they had been released in the game a year earlier. Comparatively, LTGY only came out a few months ago. I actually think they're taking their playerbase into concern here; otherwise, they wouldn't have made such drastic changes. And this is a GOOD thing, because it means they're listening to us

Wynn wrote:

No, I am not condicting myself. I stating that there is a fairly noticible difference in the power inzektors had in there rain, compared to the more recent E dragons. The thing they had in common was both hated and desired to be hit by the common person. But Inzektors weren't at the level that dictated they needed to be hit right then. E dragons were. And I think the difference is clear. I mean another example a lot of people talk about Dark worlds needing to be hit. And well OCG hasn't hit anything, about them excatly. Just cuz popular concept is they need to be hit doesn't make it so.

The problem with Inzektors, as with Dino Rabbits, Hieratics, and Wind-Ups, is that they could just completely take over the game on any given turn no matter what their setup was. Just draw Dragonfly with Hornet in grave, and you can nuke the opponent's field and Xyz spam the field by only playing said Dragonfly, and unless your opponent happened to have a Chain Disappearance, there was nothing he/she could do about it. I was very active in that format, so I know a lot about what those decks were capable of lol. They most certainly needed to be hit as soon as they were invented practically. It was just not a fair deck. How is this different from Dragon Rulers?

And Dark Worlds were hit; they are losing Card Destruction and an EEV. Last year you could say they were hit when Tour Guide was semi'd. But Dark Worlds were not nearly as consistent as the top decks last year or this year. You can side against them easily, and they have really bad mirror matches. Wind-Ups could destroy them easily with the Hunter loop, Deck Devastation was the only thing they could use to stop Inzektors, and they just straight-up died to Macro decks. I'm pretty sure they're also weak against Dragon Rulers, since, you know, nothing is good against Dragon Rulers

Wynn wrote:

The TCG list still irrates me. One reason is and even after reading fuuma post, a lot of hits seem unneeeded and random. I completely understood the idea of hitting things in prep work of what killing heavy and other stuff was. I get all of that. But for them on one hand kill speed by taking away heavy or take away shock master then give me 3 mal? I find this insulting to me. Slow? I understand, this? I understand partly, don't like it all the same.

You know, you do raise a good point here. Malicious to 3 was really not the best idea after all. Neither was Mezuki to 2, but to a lesser extent. And Whirlwind is happening in OCG too. These changes are definitely not slow for me lol. I guess we'll just have to see what happens.

Milla Lyna wrote:

I had stopped really caring about the Ban List an long time ago...even never checked them out since then~! Found it boring 'cause I enjoy the feel of using those Bannished Cards and dueling against them... I use an few of those Bannished Cards to my hearts content~

Oh, there's nothing wrong with wanting to play with banned cards every so often. In fact, I have a Rescue Cat deck that is very fun to play

The thing is that most people view banned cards as unfair. Some cards create FTK combos that can discourage player interaction entirely, like Magical Scientist or Exchange of the Spirit. Some have basically created their own format, like Chaos Emperor Dragon and Yata-Garasu, while others just break specific decks, like Substitoad or Wind-Up Carrier Zenmaighty. Still others, like Delinquent Duo, Pot of Greed, and yes, even Monster Reborn, just give the player too much advantage and make the game imbalanced. So that's why.

Us? lol I know what ya mean but remember I disagree with this list lol.

Ok Spellbooks and E dragons are a lot different from inzektors wind ups and dino bunny. Correct me if I am wrong but wind ups hand loop actually got hit before inzektors and wind ups got harsh hits? If I am correct which I think I am cuz well I played a lot that format too that means yes the consistant kill your hand deck was hit. But the other 2 decks while being strong were not instantyl hit, this I actually can pack up, not cuz I played them but cuz I understand the concept. Granted, both decks were and well still probably are, hard to beat but there is a clear difference that I am trying to get you too see.

lol Dark world and Hieratics. Interesting that you mention them. Well TGU I would say was hit for dino bunny. Card destruction was defintly a hit on them, one I sort of get, sort of don't get, either way don't care. lol. EEV is debatible it could just as easily be said it was a hit on evilswarm, it is was just a hit in general to prevent any dark deck from having its own version of heavy storm. So in the end I say 2 hits on DW and I have heard them complained about since 2012. Yeah people complaining about a deck doesn't = needs hit. being my point. And Hieratics, getting Mal back as well as there 3rd search card. And they have a version of heavy storm that is pratically free and at 3. lol Yeah they soo got slowed down in TCG lol. Again I am not saying unhitting a deck is bad, but for them to be like "We TCG, gonna hit EVERYTHING but we also going to give a bunch of stuff back to 1 deck" or anything simiar to this, is a message I just go ???? to.

lol and ya disalike the only changes I do like. lol I sort of wish mezuki went to 2 in OCG, oh well lol. But him at 2 does give me a reason to try 1 more TCG deck lol.

Wynn wrote:

So you are in OCG region SWEET
That isn't the main reason I didn't like the TCG banlist but admittly it is one reason it irrated me. I have a very fun deck that isn't really competive and it needs 2 M7 :'(. Thing is, that deck could probably easily take no heavy or no monster reborn, (No avarice would probably be switched for an emeral). And I can't think of why M7 needed to be hit. Even your like was dumbfounded on that point. lol But as I mentioned this isn't the main irrating factor to me.

I think you misunderstood. No. I'm in TCG region. Just like you. The difference is, I don't mind with any banlist. OCG or TCG. if it's OCG, I will adapt with that banlist, and if it's TCG, I will adapt with it. Well, lucky for me, I like TCG banlist more.

Wynn wrote:

I like discovering new plays. I like pushing limits. So to me, if a card can exsist at 1, it should exsist at 1 or what ever number it can exsist at. And I think many of the cards were hit uneedly. And since OCG didn't hit nearly as much, yet gave us back a few more things, I find it a much better list.
I did say I could see why TCG list is ok and I will probably build a few decks(Currentling thinking 5 or 6) just cuz there are a few things that look interesting in it. But OCG looks much better to me

Well, you could have that opinion. I don't mind. But remember, there's always a reason why they hit certain cards, and that URL I posted above is an example. Have you read it?

Kirikaze Fuuma wrote:

Wynn wrote:

So you are in OCG region SWEET
That isn't the main reason I didn't like the TCG banlist but admittly it is one reason it irrated me. I have a very fun deck that isn't really competive and it needs 2 M7 :'(. Thing is, that deck could probably easily take no heavy or no monster reborn, (No avarice would probably be switched for an emeral). And I can't think of why M7 needed to be hit. Even your like was dumbfounded on that point. lol But as I mentioned this isn't the main irrating factor to me.

I think you misunderstood. No. I'm in TCG region. Just like you. The difference is, I don't mind with any banlist. OCG or TCG. if it's OCG, I will adapt with that banlist, and if it's TCG, I will adapt with it. Well, lucky for me, I like TCG banlist more.

Wynn wrote:

I like discovering new plays. I like pushing limits. So to me, if a card can exsist at 1, it should exsist at 1 or what ever number it can exsist at. And I think many of the cards were hit uneedly. And since OCG didn't hit nearly as much, yet gave us back a few more things, I find it a much better list.
I did say I could see why TCG list is ok and I will probably build a few decks(Currentling thinking 5 or 6) just cuz there are a few things that look interesting in it. But OCG looks much better to me

Well, you could have that opinion. I don't mind. But remember, there's always a reason why they hit certain cards, and that URL I posted above is an example. Have you read it?

:'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( Well does that mean your going to play both? I don't intend to much make more then previously mentioned 5 or 6 TCG decks lol. Cuz I would be soo sad not to play ya a much as I can, your one of my favorite players
Yes I read it, and I understood most of it before hand. I still stick to my opinion that I like a higher ammout of cards, not smaller ammount.

Wynn wrote:

:'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(  Well does that mean your going to play both? I don't intend to much make more then previously mentioned 5 or 6 TCG decks lol. Cuz I would be soo sad not to play ya a much as I can, your one of my favorite players
Yes I read it, and I understood most of it before hand. I still stick to my opinion that I like a higher ammout of cards, not smaller ammount.

My Gemini and other decks would adapt with TCG rules. Like I said, I'm in TCG region. It's not about what my favor is, when it comes to banlist.

Kirikaze Fuuma wrote:

Wynn wrote:

:'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(  Well does that mean your going to play both? I don't intend to much make more then previously mentioned 5 or 6 TCG decks lol. Cuz I would be soo sad not to play ya a much as I can, your one of my favorite players
Yes I read it, and I understood most of it before hand. I still stick to my opinion that I like a higher ammout of cards, not smaller ammount.

My Gemini and other decks would adapt with TCG rules. Like I said, I'm in TCG region. It's not about what my favor is, when it comes to banlist.

:'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
Sad panda :'( :'( :'( :'(
:'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
Well I did plan to make a few TCG decks, but that doesn't give me very many options to duel against ya :'( but I guess can't be helped.
Also ya talk as if this happens a lot, isn't this the first time in years it isn't a united banlist?

Wynn wrote:

And I can't think of why M7 needed to be hit.

Honestly, I think you said it before: M7 was hit because of Malicious coming back. There are some nasty combos you can make to spam infinite M7s, and Malicious is probably the easiest way to play him. Unless you're playing Constellars of course. But I think M7 is balanced in Constellars.

Wynn wrote:

Us? lol I know what ya mean but remember I disagree with this list lol.

Lol

Wynn wrote:

Ok Spellbooks and E dragons are a lot different from inzektors wind ups and dino bunny. Correct me if I am wrong but wind ups hand loop actually got hit before inzektors and wind ups got harsh hits? If I am correct which I think I am cuz well I played a lot that format too that means yes the consistant kill your hand deck was hit. But the other 2 decks while being strong were not instantyl hit, this I actually can pack up, not cuz I played them but cuz I understand the concept. Granted, both decks were and well still probably are, hard to beat but there is a clear difference that I am trying to get you too see.

lol Dark world and Hieratics. Interesting that you mention them. Well TGU I would say was hit for dino bunny. Card destruction was defintly a hit on them, one I sort of get, sort of don't get, either way don't care. lol. EEV is debatible it could just as easily be said it was a hit on evilswarm, it is was just a hit in general to prevent any dark deck from having its own version of heavy storm. So in the end I say 2 hits on DW and I have heard them complained about since 2012. Yeah people complaining about a deck doesn't = needs hit. being my point. And Hieratics, getting Mal back as well as there 3rd search card. And they have a version of heavy storm that is pratically free and at 3. lol Yeah they soo got slowed down in TCG lol.

Wind-Ups and Inzektors were first hit at the same time. The Sept. 2012 list shows Zenmaighty, Hornet, and Dragonfly going from Unlimited to Limited all at once. March 2013 saw Zenmaighty getting banned. And for Hieratics, I was also talking about last year's list (limiting REDMD, which was their main problem card).
True, TGU was a hit to Dino Rabbit as well as Dark World, Wind-Up, and a bunch of other things. And EEV is a hit on many decks as well. That's the issue here. Because splashable cards can go in many decks, when they get hit, all of those decks hurt at the same time, fun or OP. So that's why I figure you don't like Diva limited either. But if the broken decks are broken because of such and such card, then it's tough luck for the fun decks

And whatever the concept is, I don't see it yet.

Wynn wrote:

Again I am not saying unhitting a deck is bad, but for them to be like "We TCG, gonna hit EVERYTHING but we also going to give a bunch of stuff back to 1 deck" or anything simiar to this, is a message I just go ???? to.

lol and ya disalike the only changes I do like. lol I sort of wish mezuki went to 2 in OCG, oh well lol. But him at 2 does give me a reason to try 1 more TCG deck lol.

Yeah, it is a bit strange. But you know I like a slower, more even game, so I would prefer to hit everything and not give a bunch of stuff back. Seems you just want stuff to come back

Hippocampus wrote:

Wynn wrote:

And I can't think of why M7 needed to be hit.

Honestly, I think you said it before: M7 was hit because of Malicious coming back. There are some nasty combos you can make to spam infinite M7s, and Malicious is probably the easiest way to play him. Unless you're playing Constellars of course. But I think M7 is balanced in Constellars.

Wynn wrote:

Us? lol I know what ya mean but remember I disagree with this list lol.

Lol

Wynn wrote:

Ok Spellbooks and E dragons are a lot different from inzektors wind ups and dino bunny. Correct me if I am wrong but wind ups hand loop actually got hit before inzektors and wind ups got harsh hits? If I am correct which I think I am cuz well I played a lot that format too that means yes the consistant kill your hand deck was hit. But the other 2 decks while being strong were not instantyl hit, this I actually can pack up, not cuz I played them but cuz I understand the concept. Granted, both decks were and well still probably are, hard to beat but there is a clear difference that I am trying to get you too see.

lol Dark world and Hieratics. Interesting that you mention them. Well TGU I would say was hit for dino bunny. Card destruction was defintly a hit on them, one I sort of get, sort of don't get, either way don't care. lol. EEV is debatible it could just as easily be said it was a hit on evilswarm, it is was just a hit in general to prevent any dark deck from having its own version of heavy storm. So in the end I say 2 hits on DW and I have heard them complained about since 2012. Yeah people complaining about a deck doesn't = needs hit. being my point. And Hieratics, getting Mal back as well as there 3rd search card. And they have a version of heavy storm that is pratically free and at 3. lol Yeah they soo got slowed down in TCG lol.

Wind-Ups and Inzektors were first hit at the same time. The Sept. 2012 list shows Zenmaighty, Hornet, and Dragonfly going from Unlimited to Limited all at once. March 2013 saw Zenmaighty getting banned. And for Hieratics, I was also talking about last year's list (limiting REDMD, which was their main problem card).
True, TGU was a hit to Dino Rabbit as well as Dark World, Wind-Up, and a bunch of other things. And EEV is a hit on many decks as well. That's the issue here. Because splashable cards can go in many decks, when they get hit, all of those decks hurt at the same time, fun or OP. So that's why I figure you don't like Diva limited either. But if the broken decks are broken because of such and such card, then it's tough luck for the fun decks

And whatever the concept is, I don't see it yet.

Wynn wrote:

Again I am not saying unhitting a deck is bad, but for them to be like "We TCG, gonna hit EVERYTHING but we also going to give a bunch of stuff back to 1 deck" or anything simiar to this, is a message I just go ???? to.

lol and ya disalike the only changes I do like. lol I sort of wish mezuki went to 2 in OCG, oh well lol. But him at 2 does give me a reason to try 1 more TCG deck lol.

Yeah, it is a bit strange. But you know I like a slower, more even game, so I would prefer to hit everything and not give a bunch of stuff back. Seems you just want stuff to come back

If that is the reason it is a poor one, mal will probably see more synchro play then xyz. And if he does, I doubt people are going to use more then 1 m7 with mal. Maybe hietics but thing is if ya going to hurt hietics plays cuz mal gives them more rank6 then why not hit atum? Atum mainly sees play in hietics, why hurt all decks for the sin of one?

Oh I guess I was mistaken. Well thing is my point is still somewhat validated by current OCG list. I recall reading an article, don't ask for a link long time ago, pointing out why hornet, zenmighty and rabbit weren't hit, and while there were strong it wasn't yet there time. I sort of agree, I liked the challenge, to me, I like bringing myself up to beat other hard decks not waiting for them to be dragged down. The reason those decks weren't hit right away is cuz the difference in there power at that moment was different the level of power of dragon rulers and spellbooks. It may not look it. The difference between master and apprentice is always clear, if it at face value it isn't seen.
Oh and I didn't expect e dragons/spell books to be hit as hard as they were, but I do understand it. And to a small degree I am sad, I liked fighting them. I even made a special deck with the goal on combating Dragon rulers, granted it only had little success, but I had a second deck that had a decent ammout of success.

I personally think diva was hit against mal then mermails, cuz it was to consistant of a instant lv8 x2. Though mermails probably didn't hurt the cause. Cuz in all honesty even at 1, mermails can still use it, dragoons still exsist, and salvage is a card, mermails used it to fetch other stuff, so limiting it hurts decks that attempt to use it as an engine.

And it isn't that I am against slow, my love, in the form of a deck is innatly slow. I rather don't like being cut off from cards. I much prefer to fight a card and have access to it, then not being able to use it. Though clearly I am not against OP(our defintion of OP might very) being rightfully hit. But as the OCG list does clearly show a lot of hits weren't needed . But I wasn't saying TCG list is bad, just that I don't like it.

Wynn wrote:

If that is the reason it is a poor one, mal will probably see more synchro play then xyz. And if he does, I doubt people are going to use more then 1 m7 with mal. Maybe hietics but thing is if ya going to hurt hietics plays cuz mal gives them more rank6 then why not hit atum? Atum mainly sees play in hietics, why hurt all decks for the sin of one?

Well I think he will see both synchro and xyz plays, because he can be run in various decks and thus have many combos attached to him. And yeah Atum is kinda annoying, but as you could tell, I don't think their goal was to hit Hieratics with this list. Nobody has really played them in a year, so they're trying to bring them back, as with the rest of the underused decks like Blackwings, Zombies, T.G.s, etc. But yeah, I don't see any other reason why M7 is getting hit.

Wynn wrote:

Oh I guess I was mistaken. Well thing is my point is still somewhat validated by current OCG list. I recall reading an article, don't ask for a link long time ago, pointing out why hornet, zenmighty and rabbit weren't hit, and while there were strong it wasn't yet there time. I sort of agree, I liked the challenge, to me, I like bringing myself up to beat other hard decks not waiting for them to be dragged down. The reason those decks weren't hit right away is cuz the difference in there power at that moment was different the level of power of dragon rulers and spellbooks. It may not look it. The difference between master and apprentice is always clear, if it at face value it isn't seen.
Oh and I didn't expect e dragons/spell books to be hit as hard as they were, but I do understand it. And to a small degree I am sad, I liked fighting them. I even made a special deck with the goal on combating Dragon rulers, granted it only had little success, but I had a second deck that had a decent ammout of success.

It wasn't yet their time because ORCS was still selling
Well now you are basically saying that Dragon Rulers can be combatted against, which is just like how last year's top decks were. And honestly, their power levels were the same given the time period. Don't forget, the game has evolved a bit since last year; we have some new staples such as Forbidden Dress and Breakthrough Skill, some new Synchros like Mist Bird and Star Eater, and some new Xyz options, like Blackship of Corn and Lavalval Chain, and Lightning Chidori for Gustos in particular. While nowadays we fear Dragon Rulers and Prophecies as the top decks, they didn't exist last year, but the game was different back then too and so we had Inzektors and Wind-Ups as top decks instead. But hey, if you like the challenge, then there's nothing more I can say to that.

Lol but I don't think anyone expected E Dragons to be hit as hard as they were. I remember when OCG list was first leaked, everybody was like "What? Konami is really doing that?" XD
Prophecies were not hit that hard, though... why does no one else see this?

Wynn wrote:

I personally think diva was hit against mal then mermails, cuz it was to consistant of a instant lv8 x2. Though mermails probably didn't hurt the cause. Cuz in all honesty even at 1, mermails can still use it, dragoons still exsist, and salvage is a card, mermails used it to fetch other stuff, so limiting it hurts decks that attempt to use it as an engine.

Aha! So it was used as an engine... just like Tour Guide, eh? But we all know that Diva is more versatile now than Tour Guide is... so why should it not get the same treatment?

And what Level 8s are problematic? Stardust and Scrap? They're not as strong as they used to be, mate. If making Level 8 Synchros were a problem, then they'd probably also limit Dragunity Phalanx and ban Formula Synchron. Maybe even hit Night's End Sorceror because it's searchable in Prophecies. And at that point, they wouldn't even bother bringing Malicious back in the first place.

Wynn wrote:

And it isn't that I am against slow, my love, in the form of a deck is innatly slow. I rather don't like being cut off from cards. I much prefer to fight a card and have access to it, then not being able to use it. Though clearly I am not against OP(our defintion of OP might very) being rightfully hit. But as the OCG list does clearly show a lot of hits weren't needed . But I wasn't saying TCG list is bad, just that I don't like it.

Alright, Wynn, let me ask you this, since I don't seem to see your input on this anywhere in the thread. What was your thoughts about the cards the OCG chose to bring off the list? Trishula to 1, Gorz, Bestiari, Grand Mole, and Chaos Sorceror to 2, and Reasoning, Mirror Force, and Advanced Ritual Art to 3?

Hippocampus wrote:

Wynn wrote:

If that is the reason it is a poor one, mal will probably see more synchro play then xyz. And if he does, I doubt people are going to use more then 1 m7 with mal. Maybe hietics but thing is if ya going to hurt hietics plays cuz mal gives them more rank6 then why not hit atum? Atum mainly sees play in hietics, why hurt all decks for the sin of one?

Well I think he will see both synchro and xyz plays, because he can be run in various decks and thus have many combos attached to him. And yeah Atum is kinda annoying, but as you could tell, I don't think their goal was to hit Hieratics with this list. Nobody has really played them in a year, so they're trying to bring them back, as with the rest of the underused decks like Blackwings, Zombies, T.G.s, etc. But yeah, I don't see any other reason why M7 is getting hit.

Wynn wrote:

Oh I guess I was mistaken. Well thing is my point is still somewhat validated by current OCG list. I recall reading an article, don't ask for a link long time ago, pointing out why hornet, zenmighty and rabbit weren't hit, and while there were strong it wasn't yet there time. I sort of agree, I liked the challenge, to me, I like bringing myself up to beat other hard decks not waiting for them to be dragged down. The reason those decks weren't hit right away is cuz the difference in there power at that moment was different the level of power of dragon rulers and spellbooks. It may not look it. The difference between master and apprentice is always clear, if it at face value it isn't seen.
Oh and I didn't expect e dragons/spell books to be hit as hard as they were, but I do understand it. And to a small degree I am sad, I liked fighting them. I even made a special deck with the goal on combating Dragon rulers, granted it only had little success, but I had a second deck that had a decent ammout of success.

It wasn't yet their time because ORCS was still selling
Well now you are basically saying that Dragon Rulers can be combatted against, which is just like how last year's top decks were. And honestly, their power levels were the same given the time period. Don't forget, the game has evolved a bit since last year; we have some new staples such as Forbidden Dress and Breakthrough Skill, some new Synchros like Mist Bird and Star Eater, and some new Xyz options, like Blackship of Corn and Lavalval Chain, and Lightning Chidori for Gustos in particular. While nowadays we fear Dragon Rulers and Prophecies as the top decks, they didn't exist last year, but the game was different back then too and so we had Inzektors and Wind-Ups as top decks instead. But hey, if you like the challenge, then there's nothing more I can say to that.

Lol but I don't think anyone expected E Dragons to be hit as hard as they were. I remember when OCG list was first leaked, everybody was like "What? Konami is really doing that?" XD
Prophecies were not hit that hard, though... why does no one else see this?

Wynn wrote:

I personally think diva was hit against mal then mermails, cuz it was to consistant of a instant lv8 x2. Though mermails probably didn't hurt the cause. Cuz in all honesty even at 1, mermails can still use it, dragoons still exsist, and salvage is a card, mermails used it to fetch other stuff, so limiting it hurts decks that attempt to use it as an engine.

Aha! So it was used as an engine... just like Tour Guide, eh? But we all know that Diva is more versatile now than Tour Guide is... so why should it not get the same treatment?

And what Level 8s are problematic? Stardust and Scrap? They're not as strong as they used to be, mate. If making Level 8 Synchros were a problem, then they'd probably also limit Dragunity Phalanx and ban Formula Synchron. Maybe even hit Night's End Sorceror because it's searchable in Prophecies. And at that point, they wouldn't even bother bringing Malicious back in the first place.

Wynn wrote:

And it isn't that I am against slow, my love, in the form of a deck is innatly slow. I rather don't like being cut off from cards. I much prefer to fight a card and have access to it, then not being able to use it. Though clearly I am not against OP(our defintion of OP might very) being rightfully hit. But as the OCG list does clearly show a lot of hits weren't needed . But I wasn't saying TCG list is bad, just that I don't like it.

Alright, Wynn, let me ask you this, since I don't seem to see your input on this anywhere in the thread. What was your thoughts about the cards the OCG chose to bring off the list? Trishula to 1, Gorz, Bestiari, Grand Mole, and Chaos Sorceror to 2, and Reasoning, Mirror Force, and Advanced Ritual Art to 3?

Hieritics are an OTK deck though, wehy would they be wanting to increase the power of an OTK deck when they seem to want it getting slowed down.
Not even fuuma link gave a reason, they guy was like, M7? No idea. lol

And No I still don't think your getting my point, I am suggesting that e dragons were even calcuating the different times and styles stronger then inzektors. Which is a pivital point I am attmpting to make.
I suck at search but either way this might make an interesting point, there was a world tournment right before inzektors were hit right? What were the top 32 of that world? Compare it to the more recent world top 32. .
Spellbooks were strong before judgement day but it was that spell that broke them. I think they are just fine without it currently and if they aren't I want to see the crimes there are guilty of before hitting them further, but that is just me.

And yes that is my style, though I am not saying you should join, rather just stating it Always looking to be stronger

Ok Diva has is a bit different, see Diva can only make rank 2, which is far weaker. In a synchro build it can make obviously more, but not much without more field presence to begin with. Diva in mermails as mentioned mermails can still make decent use of diva lol. It is like taking about TGU,  saying ya woud hit TGU cuz of DW makes no sense, DW has other TGU target so they are uneffected by the hit. But Dino bunny somthing that relays on TGU insant rank 3 is effected by it engine be disrupted. lol. And Actually I am personally fine with 3 TGU and Sangan, lol the engine in no way bothered me, and I rarely used it. lol.

It isn't that synchro 8s are prblems but diva + foolish burial could be a 2 lv 8 synchro on the first turn, that is a fast and explosive play.

Trish to 1 Hell Ya
Gorz to 2, nervious, but willing to see.
Bestiari to 2, less nervious, curious to see
Grand mole to 2, don't agree or like, but meh, can't expect every card to me what I would pick lol.
chaos sorc, to 2 don't care, wasn't he at 3 not to long ago? lol
Reasoning to 3, also don't care lol dont think I ever used it. lol
Mirror force to 3, probaly not going to use more then 2, so meh, don't care. I like that some decks can triple up on it.
ARA to 3 Love it. :)new decks to be experting with :)like Dark Gaia, Demise chaos rabbit Sworm

well I guess I'll post what I've been meaning to

starting with the forbidden cards

Baby Dragons: good riddance
Stratos: I'll admit I'm disappointed to see him go and in some cases feel its unneeded (3x E-Call and A Hero Lives now is cool but... clogs up space, not to mention I can't imagine running more than 2x A Hero Lives simply due to massive LP cost) but everything D-HERO not Disk beign lifted makes it understandable at least
Number 16: Shock Master: as mentioned, not broken... but still beign a lockout card doesn't do it any favors. not to mention its effect is just too good. by which I mean unless you have the space why would you run ANY other 3-material generic rank-4? that's where its biggest problem lies and why I'm honestly fine with seeing it gone
Card Destruction: ehhhh.... This effectively kills any deckout builds, since they're already slow enough to work as is but still, cheap card thats way too abusive now I'm fine with seeing it gone
Gateway of the Six: "win moar" nuff said
Heavy Storm: biggest problem I have here is that its very likely we'll get another "set 5, pass" format, with Fire Fists probably being the best counter to this due to how easily they can spam out Fire Formation spells then just use them to pop the opponent's field which even with Spirit and Tenki being hit already gives them a pretty huge advantage right off the bat
Monster Reborn: love this card, but kills creativity and also basically just functions now as another "win moar" card. needed to go
Pot of Avarice: also sad to see it go, but there's a huge problem with decks that can abuse it being way too abusive with it. hopefully we get some other Pot replacements like we have with Duality/Duplicity that are far more balanced down the line. though on a related note, with it being hit I could see Gusto decks making more use of Daigusto Emeral than before
Spellbook of Judgment: 0/10 card design, stay banned forever
Super Rejuvenation: also sad to see it go, but recently designed dragons along with the way the game has changed since it was first released ages ago have made this card far more abusive then it was ever meant to be
Solemn Judgment: another case of killing deck creativity, goodbye
Ultimate Offering: honestly not really sure whats going on here... too good for a format with reduced backrow removal/negation maybe?