What is the most annoying yugioh card you had seen(if you duel)

ALL CARDS MADE DURING THE XYZ SERIES!!!!

Binding Dharc wrote:

ALL CARDS MADE DURING THE XYZ SERIES!!!!

lol... I understand if people would hate certain cards. but all? Including the small fries? Probably you're in bad mood.

I most certainly am in a bad mood, but there is a reason I am generalizing it like that.
In the xyz series, the strategy of most all (and when I say 'most all', I mean a good 90% of all) decks utilizing them have the following strategy:

Summon a monster that special summons a monster that special summons a monster; xyz summon an 2500+ atk monster that special summons more monsters to xyz summon ANOTHER xyz monster with 2500+ atk and then use any spells, traps, or your monsters effects to completely destroy/take over what is on the opponent's field, leaving them wide open for the most brutal full frontal assault possible that also leaves them with nothing that (unless they are also using such an absurd xyz deck) they cannot possibly recover from without getting extremely lucky.

It honestly ticks me off (I've been on dueling network a lot lately) that half the people I duel can and do use this kind of strategy, and are usually perfectly capable of getting it all accomplished on their very first turn.


So actually, because of that stategy, it's not that I hate them ALL 'even the small fry'; its that I hate them all 'ESPECIALLY the small fry'

Hmm... just a suggestion, if you want to add something in your post, please use edit button next time. I'm gonna merge your double post.

Binding Dharc wrote:

I most certainly am in a bad mood, but there is a reason I am generalizing it like that.
In the xyz series, the strategy of most all (and when I say 'most all', I mean a good 90% of all) decks utilizing them have the following strategy:

Summon a monster that special summons a monster that special summons a monster; xyz summon an 2500+ atk monster that special summons more monsters to xyz summon ANOTHER xyz monster with 2500+ atk and then use any spells, traps, or your monsters effects to completely destroy/take over what is on the opponent's field, leaving them wide open for the most brutal full frontal assault possible that also leaves them with nothing that (unless they are also using such an absurd xyz deck) they cannot possibly recover from without getting extremely lucky.

It honestly ticks me off (I've been on dueling network a lot lately) that half the people I duel can and do use this kind of strategy, and are usually perfectly capable of getting it all accomplished on their very first turn.

Binding Dharc wrote:

So actually, because of that stategy, it's not that I hate them ALL 'even the small fry'; its that I hate them all 'ESPECIALLY the small fry'

So according to what you said, you hate cards like Achacha Archer, Zubaba Knight, Ganbara Knight, which actually doesn't have a trait like you described above (summon other monster, xyz, gain advantage, summon another xyz again). I can name several other cards which doesn't have that trait you mentioned above (from Zexal era, of course). And please don't tell me you also hate them because these cards are not even used in competitive duel unlike several cards with those traits you mentioned above. Konami created so many cards for Zexal era, but not all of them are competitive.

Binding Dharc wrote:

I most certainly am in a bad mood, but there is a reason I am generalizing it like that.
In the xyz series, the strategy of most all (and when I say 'most all', I mean a good 90% of all) decks utilizing them have the following strategy:

Summon a monster that special summons a monster that special summons a monster; xyz summon an 2500+ atk monster that special summons more monsters to xyz summon ANOTHER xyz monster with 2500+ atk and then use any spells, traps, or your monsters effects to completely destroy/take over what is on the opponent's field, leaving them wide open for the most brutal full frontal assault possible that also leaves them with nothing that (unless they are also using such an absurd xyz deck) they cannot possibly recover from without getting extremely lucky.

It honestly ticks me off (I've been on dueling network a lot lately) that half the people I duel can and do use this kind of strategy, and are usually perfectly capable of getting it all accomplished on their very first turn.

This is honestly why I haven't been very active in the OCG/TCG lately as I had been in past years. Since the creation of Xyz monsters, every (and I mean EVERY) archetype or playstyle revolves around xyz summoning and making xyz monsters. You could argue that the same thing happened when Synchros first came out, but that's not really true, since Gladiator Beasts, Frognarchs, and Lightsworns were still topping for a good half of the Synchro format, and didn't use synchro monsters. Look at the top decks of 2012. The strategy of Hieratics was to swarm the field with Atum and the Rank 10 cannon guy. Wind-Ups swarmed with Carrier Zenmaighty, and Inzektors swarmed with Exa-Beetle, Tiras, and Adreus. And now, every single one of those decks is considered bad this format because they are eclipsed by Prophecys, Mermails, and E-Drags, who do even more swarming and destruction followed by their own xyz summoning.

Basically, the creativity and diversity of the game went out the window when Xyz monsters came out because every good deck now has the same kind of plays. All of the non-Xyz monsters in any given post-GENF archetype do nothing but generate plusses and swarm the field for the sole purpose of making xyz monsters, which are incredibly overpowered for no reason just because Konami thinks that detaching a material is such a big cost. The game has turned into an OTK format; not OTKs like Exodia, but OTKs with destroying or negating all your opponent's cards and attacking directly with at least 5000 damage in one turn. This is not how the game was intended to be played.

In general, xyz is quite a bad mechanic because it puts a limit on the kind of cards you're allowed to have in the game. Evolzar Laggia/Dolkka, for example, weren't problems by themselves, (even though their effects are a bit op), but as we all know, Rescue Rabbit broke them because his swarm power was ridiculous. Big Eye is another example; he was balanced because he was difficult to make, until they started making swarmable level 7s. It doesn't matter how difficult an OP monster is to summon, if you make an archetype that summons the monster on the first turn consistently, it's not fair because the card is that much more broken. I personally think that the only reason why Sangan was banned was because of xyz monsters, as he was even seeing a decrease in play before them.

Sorry for ranting, but I'm just tired of seeing xyz everywhere, since as I've said they really have taken over this game. For the record, we don't have any xyz monsters in my ccg, and we feel we're actually better off without them - decks are not only a lot more controlled, but they're also more creative.

Kirikaze Fuuma wrote:

And please don't tell me you also hate them because these cards are not even used in competitive duel unlike several cards with those traits you mentioned above. Konami created so many cards for Zexal era, but not all of them are competitive.

This is true, but most people on Dueling Network make competitive decks, at least in rated play, because they want to win and increase their ranking. So the people who actually want to have fun and play with the decks they like get screwed over. I can definitely see why Binding Dharc would be fed up. And comparing with the meta archetypes of the Zexal era, the common and non-archetype specific cards found in GAOV, ABYR, etc., kinda suck. Do you know anyone who actually uses Doom Donuts lol?

Hippocampus wrote:

Kirikaze Fuuma wrote:

And please don't tell me you also hate them because these cards are not even used in competitive duel unlike several cards with those traits you mentioned above. Konami created so many cards for Zexal era, but not all of them are competitive.

This is true, but most people on Dueling Network make competitive decks, at least in rated play, because they want to win and increase their ranking. So the people who actually want to have fun and play with the decks they like get screwed over. I can definitely see why Binding Dharc would be fed up. And comparing with the meta archetypes of the Zexal era, the common and non-archetype specific cards found in GAOV, ABYR, etc., kinda suck. Do you know anyone who actually uses Doom Donuts lol?

Yes, I have no denial about it. Most people often play competitive decks and it's actually boring to see about 10 rooms are dueling with certain same decks (mostly, are competitive, around tier 1 or 2). But, I just want to point to Binding Dharc, not all cards in xyz era are like that. Still, I have no denial some archetypes are detestable. Rather than 'all', I prefer to call it 'the mainstream zexal cards'.

[quote="Kirikaze Fuuma"][quote="Hippocampus"][quote="Kirikaze Fuuma"]And please don't tell me you also hate them because these cards are not even used in competitive duel unlike several cards with those traits you mentioned above. Konami created so many cards for Zexal era, but not all of them are competitive.[/quote]
This is true, but most people on Dueling Network make competitive decks, at least in rated play, because they want to win and increase their ranking. So the people who actually want to have fun and play with the decks they like get screwed over. I can definitely see why Binding Dharc would be fed up. And comparing with the meta archetypes of the Zexal era, the common and non-archetype specific cards found in GAOV, ABYR, etc., kinda suck. Do you know anyone who actually uses Doom Donuts lol?[/quote]


Yes, I have no denial about it. Most people often play competitive decks and it's actually boring to see about 10 rooms are dueling with certain same decks (mostly, are competitive, around tier 1 or 2). But, I just want to point to Binding Dharc, not all cards in xyz era are like that. Still, I have no denial some archetypes are detestable. Rather than 'all', I prefer to call it 'the mainstream zexal cards'. [/quote]Yeah, I generalized it to save the trouble of listing all the cards I've dealt with lately. So you're right 'mainstream' is a much better term

Well the thing about that is zexal hasn't done anything different. If anything I think it makes it more fair. A deck like amazon before couldn't really keep an extra deck, a tuner would be hard for its play style. ANd if it did it was probably only 1 or 2, so not really a synchro deck, but now it has acess to tones of help without changing styles.
If you want to think about OP(overpowered) it exsisted before xyz or zexal and even before synchro.
Anyone remember magical scientist OTK? lol How about yata lock? These extreemly OP existed before synchros lol.
I noticed that there are OP Magic, Trap, Monster, synchro, fusuion and XYZ cards so I see no reason to hate on any one of them. I may hate OP though lol.

Oh and my most hated card is and always will be "Pale Beast"

Wynn wrote:

Well the thing about that is zexal hasn't done anything different. If anything I think it makes it more fair.

mainstream xyz decks can only be considered 'fair' when playing against other mainstream xyz decks. It seems like when they are used against previous decks though, the speed at which people can summon four monsters is too brutal for a comeback of any kind.

Wynn wrote:

I noticed that there are OP Magic, Trap, Monster, synchro, fusuion and XYZ cards so I see no reason to hate on any one of them. I may hate OP though lol.

No one ever said there weren't OP cards before xyz, just that the xyz are freakishly OP.


EDIT: and does anyone know why I can't seem to use "quote" "bold" or anything, and it just gets put in as text?

Binding Dharc wrote:

Wynn wrote:

Well the thing about that is zexal hasn't done anything different. If anything I think it makes it more fair.

mainstream xyz decks can only be considered 'fair' when playing against other mainstream xyz decks. It seems like when they are used against previous decks though, the speed at which people can summon four monsters is too brutal for a comeback of any kind.

Wynn wrote:

I noticed that there are OP Magic, Trap, Monster, synchro, fusuion and XYZ cards so I see no reason to hate on any one of them. I may hate OP though lol.

No one ever said there weren't OP cards before xyz, just that the xyz are freakishly OP.


EDIT: and does anyone know why I can't seem to use "quote" "bold" or anything, and it just gets put in as text?

Well, you seem to be making a disteaction right now. Saying that xyz are freakishly OP, I would disagree there.
Just in the number catigory I would say number 7,10 and 34 kind of suck, not only not OP but actually crappy.
You could easily say number 11 is OP, but a few op cards doesn't make the type OP. I mean the Ice barrier synchros were OP, that doesn't make alll sycnhros OP suddenly. Just like dark hole is power, magic cards aren't OP suddenly lol.
Know what I mean?

Some of the xyz cards are for 1 deck like number 8 and the battle boxer xyz. Im just tired of seeing dragons. Im temping to trap my dragon capture jar and siding it for my decks.

Wynn wrote:

Well the thing about that is zexal hasn't done anything different. If anything I think it makes it more fair. A deck like amazon before couldn't really keep an extra deck, a tuner would be hard for its play style. ANd if it did it was probably only 1 or 2, so not really a synchro deck, but now it has acess to tones of help without changing styles.

Yes, but by doing so you're changing the original playstyle of the archetype. The best example of this would be Harpies. Before LTGY, Harpies were a pretty bad deck because there really was little cohesiveness, not gonna lie. Now, however, they can fare pretty well. Why? Because the new cards given to them are all about swarming the field, adding cards from your deck to your hand, and xyz summoning. It's as I said before, the original playstyle of the deck has been put away in favor of xyz, and it's killing the creativity of the game.

Wynn wrote:

Oh and my most hated card is and always will be "Pale Beast"

Pale Beast's got nothing on Larvas. Most broken card if I ever saw one.

Binding Dharc wrote:

mainstream xyz decks can only be considered 'fair' when playing against other mainstream xyz decks. It seems like when they are used against previous decks though, the speed at which people can summon four monsters is too brutal for a comeback of any kind.

That is true, which is how Konami is telling you to either play with these new decks and cards or just flat-out lose. It's kind of depressing. So many cards have been made, and less than 1% of them are still used in today's game.

Wynn wrote:

Binding Dharc wrote:

No one ever said there weren't OP cards before xyz, just that the xyz are freakishly OP.

Well, you seem to be making a disteaction right now. Saying that xyz are freakishly OP, I would disagree there.
Just in the number catigory I would say number 7,10 and 34 kind of suck, not only not OP but actually crappy.
You could easily say number 11 is OP, but a few op cards doesn't make the type OP. I mean the Ice barrier synchros were OP, that doesn't make alll sycnhros OP suddenly. Just like dark hole is power, magic cards aren't OP suddenly lol.
Know what I mean?

He's talking about the cards used in top decks though. Of course, Illumiknight and Wind-Up Zenmaister are considered bad, but because of that, he's not going to find people on DN who would use them. He's more likely to find people using Leviair the Sea Dragon, for instance, and this is where his generalization would come from.

By the way, if anything I said was wrong, feel free to correct me, Dharc .

Charmergirl2251 wrote:

Some of the xyz cards are for 1 deck like number 8 and the battle boxer xyz. Im just tired of seeing dragons. Im temping to trap my dragon capture jar and siding it for my decks.

Yes! You win, Charmergirl. Dragons need to stop being everywhere. And Dragon Capture Jar is a great side. Have you also tried Electric Virus?

Hippocampus wrote:

Pale Beast's got nothing on Larvas. Most broken card if I ever saw one.

I think it's because of the artwork.

Hippocampus wrote:

Yes! You win, Charmergirl. Dragons need to stop being everywhere. And Dragon Capture Jar is a great side. Have you also tried Electric Virus?

If what you mean is E-Drags, Dragon Capture Jar is 100% useless against these monsters. If you want to stop them, try to prevent your opponent to special summon level 5 monsters or above. I'll leave the idea to you.

Hippocampus wrote:

Wynn wrote:

Well the thing about that is zexal hasn't done anything different. If anything I think it makes it more fair. A deck like amazon before couldn't really keep an extra deck, a tuner would be hard for its play style. ANd if it did it was probably only 1 or 2, so not really a synchro deck, but now it has acess to tones of help without changing styles.

Yes, but by doing so you're changing the original playstyle of the archetype. The best example of this would be Harpies. Before LTGY, Harpies were a pretty bad deck because there really was little cohesiveness, not gonna lie. Now, however, they can fare pretty well. Why? Because the new cards given to them are all about swarming the field, adding cards from your deck to your hand, and xyz summoning. It's as I said before, the original playstyle of the deck has been put away in favor of xyz, and it's killing the creativity of the game.

Wynn wrote:

Oh and my most hated card is and always will be "Pale Beast"

Pale Beast's got nothing on Larvas. Most broken card if I ever saw one.

Binding Dharc wrote:

mainstream xyz decks can only be considered 'fair' when playing against other mainstream xyz decks. It seems like when they are used against previous decks though, the speed at which people can summon four monsters is too brutal for a comeback of any kind.

That is true, which is how Konami is telling you to either play with these new decks and cards or just flat-out lose. It's kind of depressing. So many cards have been made, and less than 1% of them are still used in today's game.

Wynn wrote:

Binding Dharc wrote:

No one ever said there weren't OP cards before xyz, just that the xyz are freakishly OP.

Well, you seem to be making a disteaction right now. Saying that xyz are freakishly OP, I would disagree there.
Just in the number catigory I would say number 7,10 and 34 kind of suck, not only not OP but actually crappy.
You could easily say number 11 is OP, but a few op cards doesn't make the type OP. I mean the Ice barrier synchros were OP, that doesn't make alll sycnhros OP suddenly. Just like dark hole is power, magic cards aren't OP suddenly lol.
Know what I mean?

He's talking about the cards used in top decks though. Of course, Illumiknight and Wind-Up Zenmaister are considered bad, but because of that, he's not going to find people on DN who would use them. He's more likely to find people using Leviair the Sea Dragon, for instance, and this is where his generalization would come from.

By the way, if anything I said was wrong, feel free to correct me, Dharc .

Charmergirl2251 wrote:

Some of the xyz cards are for 1 deck like number 8 and the battle boxer xyz. Im just tired of seeing dragons. Im temping to trap my dragon capture jar and siding it for my decks.

Yes! You win, Charmergirl. Dragons need to stop being everywhere. And Dragon Capture Jar is a great side. Have you also tried Electric Virus?

Harpies are a bad example there because they released cards with the intent to change styles. lol.
I was saying that since amazons use mostly lv4 monsters before they had nearly no access to the extra deck but know they could add plenty of cards. They don;t need to use them but the option increases there power without them having to change styles.

If he is talking only about top deck he is still grouping which is my point. Unfortently people like to win so they tend to use what wins but this isn't something new to xyz. There being OP xyz cards isn't suprising but that doesn't make XYZ broken. It makes 'those" cards broken lol. I mean in the synchro era there were some other really broken stuff too. Like when sams had 3 gateways or when there was 3 t.g libriains and 3 formula. You wanna talk ultra summons those decks were brutal. llol but those decks don't innately make every synchro broken.
Just like the fact that there are strong fusion or spells don't make ever spell broken.

Kirikaze Fuuma wrote:

I think it's because of the artwork.

Oh, you're right then, Pale Beast does look kinda bad. I don't really like the artwork on Pot of Avarice, either... love the card, hate the art haha

Wynn wrote:

Harpies are a bad example there because they released cards with the intent to change styles. lol.
I was saying that since amazons use mostly lv4 monsters before they had nearly no access to the extra deck but know they could add plenty of cards. They don;t need to use them but the option increases there power without them having to change styles.

Yes, but if you think about it, they really are changing playstyles. All the amazoness monsters have effects that are used on the field, and when you overlay them for something, their effects vanish, and many spell and trap cards requiring amazoness monsters on the field would now stop benefiting you because you don't control any amazoness monsters. So you'd ultimately be changing your deck to fit to the xyz monsters, which is my point. It does make them more competitive, sure, but honestly if the only reason to play with that deck would be to xyz summon, there are plenty of better options.

Wynn wrote:

If he is talking only about top deck he is still grouping which is my point. Unfortently people like to win so they tend to use what wins but this isn't something new to xyz. There being OP xyz cards isn't suprising but that doesn't make XYZ broken. It makes 'those" cards broken lol. I mean in the synchro era there were some other really broken stuff too. Like when sams had 3 gateways or when there was 3 t.g libriains and 3 formula. You wanna talk ultra summons those decks were  brutal. llol but those decks don't innately make every synchro broken.
Just like the fact that there are strong fusion or spells don't make ever spell broken.

Oh yes, I remember 2011 very well... 3 Tengu, 3 Fishborg, 3 Shien, and Dustshoot. Did not like that format. But back on topic.

You are correct, Wynn, don't get me wrong. Almost every single booster pack has had at least 1 broken card, which is Konami's fault for making such cards. It is true, though, that the power level of the game has increased drastically over the past few years from what it used to be, as some things that were broken back then are underpowered now (take Tsukuyomi for example, or even BLS, or hell, even Raigeki to an extent). I feel, however, that xyz in general was a bad mechanic to introduce to the game because it not only introduced things like ranks and limbo materials that got around the basic rules of the game, but it also redefines what "broken" is. Xyz monsters are so much easier to make then synchros will ever be, and that's why they could create the Battle Pack in the first place. And honestly, detaching an xyz material is not really a cost, I'm sorry.

Hippocampus wrote:

Kirikaze Fuuma wrote:

I think it's because of the artwork.

Oh, you're right then, Pale Beast does look kinda bad. I don't really like the artwork on Pot of Avarice, either... love the card, hate the art haha

Wynn wrote:

Harpies are a bad example there because they released cards with the intent to change styles. lol.
I was saying that since amazons use mostly lv4 monsters before they had nearly no access to the extra deck but know they could add plenty of cards. They don;t need to use them but the option increases there power without them having to change styles.

Yes, but if you think about it, they really are changing playstyles. All the amazoness monsters have effects that are used on the field, and when you overlay them for something, their effects vanish, and many spell and trap cards requiring amazoness monsters on the field would now stop benefiting you because you don't control any amazoness monsters. So you'd ultimately be changing your deck to fit to the xyz monsters, which is my point. It does make them more competitive, sure, but honestly if the only reason to play with that deck would be to xyz summon, there are plenty of better options.

Wynn wrote:

If he is talking only about top deck he is still grouping which is my point. Unfortently people like to win so they tend to use what wins but this isn't something new to xyz. There being OP xyz cards isn't suprising but that doesn't make XYZ broken. It makes 'those" cards broken lol. I mean in the synchro era there were some other really broken stuff too. Like when sams had 3 gateways or when there was 3 t.g libriains and 3 formula. You wanna talk ultra summons those decks were  brutal. llol but those decks don't innately make every synchro broken.
Just like the fact that there are strong fusion or spells don't make ever spell broken.

Oh yes, I remember 2011 very well... 3 Tengu, 3 Fishborg, 3 Shien, and Dustshoot. Did not like that format. But back on topic.

You are correct, Wynn, don't get me wrong. Almost every single booster pack has had at least 1 broken card, which is Konami's fault for making such cards. It is true, though, that the power level of the game has increased drastically over the past few years from what it used to be, as some things that were broken back then are underpowered now (take Tsukuyomi for example, or even BLS, or hell, even Raigeki to an extent). I feel, however, that xyz in general was a bad mechanic to introduce to the game because it not only introduced things like ranks and limbo materials that got around the basic rules of the game, but it also redefines what "broken" is. Xyz monsters are so much easier to make then synchros will ever be, and that's why they could create the Battle Pack in the first place. And honestly, detaching an xyz material is not really a cost, I'm sorry.

Sorry but adding xyz to amazons doesn't "Have" to change styles. You could focus on xyz summoning and change style but my point is you don't have too. If you have 2 or 3 amazons on the fielf you can make a card that is better then the current field(Maybe) It isnt that you have to, rather you can. Amazons are all mostly lv4s so you didn't have to add new cards to the deck(Like tuners) to gain access to them.
And the detaching aspect does give them a certian edge in fairness, since after they run out of materials they are pretty much normal monsters.
But everyone is intitle to there opinion. You almost seem more mad at the cards that allow swarming over the end of xyz. And swarming decks have been around for a long time also.

Wynn wrote:

Sorry but adding xyz to amazons doesn't "Have" to change styles. You could focus on xyz summoning and change style but my point is you don't have too. If you have 2 or 3 amazons on the fielf you can make a card that is better then the current field(Maybe) It isnt that you have to, rather you can. Amazons are all mostly lv4s so you didn't have to add new cards to the deck(Like tuners) to gain access to them.

Fair point. I was simply assuming that if you chose not to adapt to the xyz style, then the deck wouldn't be as strong as if you did. But then again, I haven't played amazons either so you probably know more about them than me

Wynn wrote:

And the detaching aspect does give them a certian edge in fairness, since after they run out of materials they are pretty much normal monsters.
But everyone is intitle to there opinion. You almost seem more mad at the cards that allow swarming over the end of xyz. And swarming decks have been around for a long time also.

Again, I don't disagree with anything you just said. But you must admit that the methods of swarming used during this Zexal era are much more powerful and out-of-control than in past eras.

For example, Blackwings and X-Sabers are two decks that swarmed insanely during the Synchro era. Both of these decks, however, mostly swarmed from the hand, not the deck. There was really only one card in each deck that searched other monsters (Darksoul in X-Sabers and Whirlwind in Blackwings), so once these resources ran out, the player pretty much couldn't do anything except for stall. This is why control decks like Gladiator Beasts, Gravekeeper's, and Chaos Stun, also did well in the same meta. Even the arguably broken Six Sams followed a similar play. They first were ridiculously unfair, but once Gateway and Shien were limited, the deck slowed down considerably and had a much more difficult time in late-game plays. Why? Because they swarmed from the hand, not the Deck (Asceticism only became popular once Xyzs came out, if you remember).

Now look at some of the archetypes I mentioned in an earlier post. Wind-Ups had Carrier Zenmaighty, Magician, and Factory, which all swarmed from the deck. Inzektors had both Dragonfly and Centipede, both of which swarmed from the deck (and don't get me started on Hornet). Every single Hieratic Dragon can summon another Hieratic monster from the deck, in addition to having Hieratic Seal of Convocation. Rescue Rabbit and Tour Guide? Swarm from the deck to make Leviair, who now swarms from the banished zone. Even stupid underused common cards like Photon Ceasar can swarm from the deck. It's almost as if the deck is now just an extension of the player's hand, which is what promotes OTK format and is not what the game intended to be. And if you have an archetype that doesn't swarm from the deck, you won't be able to keep up and will most likely lose.

So you are probably right that I don't like costless swarming. But it's just really due to the changes in the game made by promoting xyz monsters if you ask me. But yes, everyone is entitled to their opinion and I really respect you for saying that. Sorz for ranting again.

Hippocampus wrote:

Wynn wrote:

Sorry but adding xyz to amazons doesn't "Have" to change styles. You could focus on xyz summoning and change style but my point is you don't have too. If you have 2 or 3 amazons on the fielf you can make a card that is better then the current field(Maybe) It isnt that you have to, rather you can. Amazons are all mostly lv4s so you didn't have to add new cards to the deck(Like tuners) to gain access to them.

Fair point. I was simply assuming that if you chose not to adapt to the xyz style, then the deck wouldn't be as strong as if you did. But then again, I haven't played amazons either so you probably know more about them than me

Wynn wrote:

And the detaching aspect does give them a certian edge in fairness, since after they run out of materials they are pretty much normal monsters.
But everyone is intitle to there opinion. You almost seem more mad at the cards that allow swarming over the end of xyz. And swarming decks have been around for a long time also.

Again, I don't disagree with anything you just said. But you must admit that the methods of swarming used during this Zexal era are much more powerful and out-of-control than in past eras.

For example, Blackwings and X-Sabers are two decks that swarmed insanely during the Synchro era. Both of these decks, however, mostly swarmed from the hand, not the deck. There was really only one card in each deck that searched other monsters (Darksoul in X-Sabers and Whirlwind in Blackwings), so once these resources ran out, the player pretty much couldn't do anything except for stall. This is why control decks like Gladiator Beasts, Gravekeeper's, and Chaos Stun, also did well in the same meta. Even the arguably broken Six Sams followed a similar play. They first were ridiculously unfair, but once Gateway and Shien were limited, the deck slowed down considerably and had a much more difficult time in late-game plays. Why? Because they swarmed from the hand, not the Deck (Asceticism only became popular once Xyzs came out, if you remember).

Now look at some of the archetypes I mentioned in an earlier post. Wind-Ups had Carrier Zenmaighty, Magician, and Factory, which all swarmed from the deck. Inzektors had both Dragonfly and Centipede, both of which swarmed from the deck (and don't get me started on Hornet). Every single Hieratic Dragon can summon another Hieratic monster from the deck, in addition to having Hieratic Seal of Convocation. Rescue Rabbit and Tour Guide? Swarm from the deck to make Leviair, who now swarms from the banished zone. Even stupid underused common cards like Photon Ceasar can swarm from the deck. It's almost as if the deck is now just an extension of the player's hand, which is what promotes OTK format and is not what the game intended to be. And if you have an archetype that doesn't swarm from the deck, you won't be able to keep up and will most likely lose.

So you are probably right that I don't like costless swarming. But it's just really due to the changes in the game made by promoting xyz monsters if you ask me. But yes, everyone is entitled to their opinion and I really respect you for saying that. Sorz for ranting again.

lol Yes we are all titled to our opinion. You may be right in saying that searching from deck is getting even higher but that doesn't modify the point of them not being anything new. For x sabers I will remind you of the kitty? lol. You other point here seems to be disliking swarm even more, well wouldn't that give you more anger towards comman effect monsters? Tourguide being bad card design doesn't make leviar OP(Leviar is good but not OP) And the thign is just like the kitty(rescue cat) and other to good search cards(Gateway, whirlwind) get banned in time there new versions get banned also(as I recall zenmaity is banned lol and TGU lost 2 targets). If your arguement is against the current speed of the game as well as the too many pluses, I can easily agree with you lol. Even at 1 each inzektors can still plus and loop like crazy. But it is nothing new, and too OP loops and combos get banned lol. The only point I cation too is to not blame 1 catigory for the crime of all cards lol. I thought this way for a while also but I found that the crime of OP is commited by all cards type not just one.
Oh and I am not an expert of amazons that honor belongs to fuuma lol. But the fact that 2 amazons could become a monster with 4k for a turn sounds like something useful and since the main deck didn't need to change allow it, that is pretty cool. Before XYZ for them to gain any access to the extra they would need to main a tuner, so it is the fluff decks that got a chance to catch up. Even if there is still always a meta holding the top positions.(Oh yeah amazons got a card that lets them search from the deck too, possibly once every turn so do mist valley lol. Summoning from deck isn't new, even if it is a bit more of a comman theme.)

Wynn wrote:

lol Yes we are all titled to our opinion. You may be right in saying that searching from deck is getting even higher but that doesn't modify the point of them not being anything new. For x sabers I will remind you of the kitty? lol. You other point here seems to be disliking swarm even more, well wouldn't that give you more anger towards comman effect monsters? Tourguide being bad card design doesn't make leviar OP(Leviar is good but not OP)

I never said that I don't dislike some effect monsters. In fact, I agree that there are still many in the game that should be banned but aren't. Rescue Cat was bad card design in the same way that Machine Duplication is bad card design. It limits card creation, and once a top deck can abuse it, it needs to go.

Wynn wrote:

And the thign is just like the kitty(rescue cat) and other to good search cards(Gateway, whirlwind) get banned in time there new versions get banned also(as I recall zenmaity is banned lol and TGU lost 2 targets).

Why make cards if they're going to get banned in the first place though? They should just not make them at all, and learn from their mistakes.

Wynn wrote:

If your arguement is against the current speed of the game as well as the too many pluses, I can easily agree with you lol. Even at 1 each inzektors can still plus and loop like crazy. But it is nothing new, and too OP loops and combos get banned lol. The only point I cation too is to not blame 1 catigory for the crime of all cards lol. I thought this way for a while also but I found that the crime of OP is commited by all cards type not just one.

Well we both can agree that there are some xyz monsters that are broken and some that aren't. I, and I think Dharc too, was just saying that every top deck nowadays just spams xyz monsters out of control and am tired of seeing them everywhere.

Wynn wrote:

Oh and I am not an expert of amazons that honor belongs to fuuma lol. But the fact that 2 amazons could become a monster with 4k for a turn sounds like something useful and since the main deck didn't need to change allow it, that is pretty cool. Before XYZ for them to gain any access to the extra they would need to main a tuner, so it is the fluff decks that got a chance to catch up. Even if there is still always a meta holding the top positions.(Oh yeah amazons got a card that lets them search from the deck too, possibly once every turn so do mist valley lol. Summoning from deck isn't new, even if it is a bit more of a comman theme.)

Yeah I definitely agree with you here, especially about the tuners bit. It's just power creep in general that irks me I guess. But it's whatever, really.

Hippocampus wrote:

Wynn wrote:

lol Yes we are all titled to our opinion. You may be right in saying that searching from deck is getting even higher but that doesn't modify the point of them not being anything new. For x sabers I will remind you of the kitty? lol. You other point here seems to be disliking swarm even more, well wouldn't that give you more anger towards comman effect monsters? Tourguide being bad card design doesn't make leviar OP(Leviar is good but not OP)

I never said that I don't dislike some effect monsters. In fact, I agree that there are still many in the game that should be banned but aren't. Rescue Cat was bad card design in the same way that Machine Duplication is bad card design. It limits card creation, and once a top deck can abuse it, it needs to go.

Wynn wrote:

And the thign is just like the kitty(rescue cat) and other to good search cards(Gateway, whirlwind) get banned in time there new versions get banned also(as I recall zenmaity is banned lol and TGU lost 2 targets).

Why make cards if they're going to get banned in the first place though? They should just not make them at all, and learn from their mistakes.

Wynn wrote:

If your arguement is against the current speed of the game as well as the too many pluses, I can easily agree with you lol. Even at 1 each inzektors can still plus and loop like crazy. But it is nothing new, and too OP loops and combos get banned lol. The only point I cation too is to not blame 1 catigory for the crime of all cards lol. I thought this way for a while also but I found that the crime of OP is commited by all cards type not just one.

Well we both can agree that there are some xyz monsters that are broken and some that aren't. I, and I think Dharc too, was just saying that every top deck nowadays just spams xyz monsters out of control and am tired of seeing them everywhere.

Wynn wrote:

Oh and I am not an expert of amazons that honor belongs to fuuma lol. But the fact that 2 amazons could become a monster with 4k for a turn sounds like something useful and since the main deck didn't need to change allow it, that is pretty cool. Before XYZ for them to gain any access to the extra they would need to main a tuner, so it is the fluff decks that got a chance to catch up. Even if there is still always a meta holding the top positions.(Oh yeah amazons got a card that lets them search from the deck too, possibly once every turn so do mist valley lol. Summoning from deck isn't new, even if it is a bit more of a comman theme.)

Yeah I definitely agree with you here, especially about the tuners bit. It's just power creep in general that irks me I guess. But it's whatever, really.

Well I don't think the intent is to release things that need to be banned, RescueCat wasn't horrid when it came out, we can't possiblity be expected to release all the possible combos of past and future cards lol. The banlist allows the game to evolve.
I don't find xyz guilty of any crime in paticluar and think they are a decent example of learning, since they help all decks lol. THe powe creep is part of the game style and isn't espically bad either but it can be annoying when it seems to be too fast lol.

Wynn wrote:

Well I don't think the intent is to release things that need to be banned, RescueCat wasn't horrid when it came out, we can't possiblity be expected to release all the possible combos of past and future cards lol. The banlist allows the game to evolve.

No, there is a definite distinction between cards like Rescue Cat, which got banned a long time after its release, and cards like Wind-Up Carrier Zenmaighty, which got banned relatively right after the format it came out in. Konami should not have made the latter; it's cards like that I do not agree with. Of course, it's also what I expect will happen with Prophecys and E-Drags this September, so they are not learning from their mistakes there.
That doesn't mean Rescue Cat was never bad card design to begin with. It was just never a problem in the meta, so noone complained. For comparison, Alien Brain is a card I think is ridiculously overpowered. The thing is, it's not abuseable or broken because Reptiles are not as powerful of a deck type. If there come a few cards that makes Reptiles top tier and this card sees competitive play, it may get limited or something; otherwise, nobody even cares about it. These kind of cards are not unhealthy for the game, but they do put limitations on what kind of cards can be made in the future.

Wynn wrote:

I don't find xyz guilty of any crime in paticluar and think they are a decent example of learning, since they help all decks lol. THe powe creep is part of the game style and isn't espically bad either but it can be annoying when it seems to be too fast lol.

And that's what I've been saying; since Zexal era, it has been way too fast.

Hippocampus wrote:

Wynn wrote:

Well I don't think the intent is to release things that need to be banned, RescueCat wasn't horrid when it came out, we can't possiblity be expected to release all the possible combos of past and future cards lol. The banlist allows the game to evolve.

No, there is a definite distinction between cards like Rescue Cat, which got banned a long time after its release, and cards like Wind-Up Carrier Zenmaighty, which got banned relatively right after the format it came out in. Konami should not have made the latter; it's cards like that I do not agree with. Of course, it's also what I expect will happen with Prophecys and E-Drags this September, so they are not learning from their mistakes there.
That doesn't mean Rescue Cat was never bad card design to begin with. It was just never a problem in the meta, so noone complained. For comparison, Alien Brain is a card I think is ridiculously overpowered. The thing is, it's not abuseable or broken because Reptiles are not as powerful of a deck type. If there come a few cards that makes Reptiles top tier and this card sees competitive play, it may get limited or something; otherwise, nobody even cares about it. These kind of cards are not unhealthy for the game, but they do put limitations on what kind of cards can be made in the future.

Wynn wrote:

I don't find xyz guilty of any crime in paticluar and think they are a decent example of learning, since they help all decks lol. THe powe creep is part of the game style and isn't espically bad either but it can be annoying when it seems to be too fast lol.

And that's what I've been saying; since Zexal era, it has been way too fast.

I guess here we may have to agree to disagree. I don't think the powers of zenmaighty and the cat are all that different and just because the cat was stupid then broken doesn't change that lol. I think they try and make many broken decks, some make it broken some don't. Making stronger cards is part of what they do, the thing is I don't think tha can accurately predict what is going to be broken and what won't. That what the banlist is for the allow us to evolve the game which is why I think the game is still played. XYZ era hasn't done anythign paticuar different. The synchro era went tubro by comparasion to the non synchro era lol.

Wynn wrote:

I guess here we may have to agree to disagree. I don't think the powers of zenmaighty and the cat are all that different and just because the cat was stupid then broken doesn't change that lol. I think they try and make many broken decks, some make it broken some don't. Making stronger cards is part of what they do, the thing is I don't think tha can accurately predict what is going to be broken and what won't. That what the banlist is for the allow us to evolve the game which is why I think the game is still played. XYZ era hasn't done anythign paticuar different. The synchro era went tubro by comparasion to the non synchro era lol.

Ohohoho, I definitely do know WHY they make strong and broken cards, as well as the point of the banlist... I just don't like their policies. But I know there's nothing I can do about it, so I just sit and complain XD
And I don't even think we're disagreeing on very much at all. You're right in that Zenmaighty and Rescue Cat are not all that different, and they both deserve to be banned (even though the kitteh's so cute). But while the cat was made long before synchros were even concieved, Zenmaighty was made with the Wind-Up loop in mind, which means Konami made it broken on purpose.
You're also very right in that the 5d's era was miles ahead of anything before it, the same way zexal era is today. Guess I'm just not a fan of xyz and happened to notice more things wrong with the game since they came out :/

Wynn wrote:

the thing is I don't think tha can accurately predict what is going to be broken and what won't

Unless if its Dragon Rulers, as I'm pretty sure even the most inept players would be able to see what's wrong here.

But despite that, I'm still gonna say they won't be banned, because tins. Super Rejuvenation totally is though.


That being said however, my biggest gripe personally is just in terms of cards which the cost plainly doesn't allow for any real downside. Along with the amount of abusable +1 currently in the game.

Like the reason why Pot of Greed is banned is because it allows for a guaranteed +1. So why Konami is now making cards which do this in spades is beyond me and almost makes me want to see CED - Envoy unbanned. Just to have a way to punish this sort of playstyle.

Hippocampus wrote:

Wynn wrote:

I guess here we may have to agree to disagree. I don't think the powers of zenmaighty and the cat are all that different and just because the cat was stupid then broken doesn't change that lol. I think they try and make many broken decks, some make it broken some don't. Making stronger cards is part of what they do, the thing is I don't think tha can accurately predict what is going to be broken and what won't. That what the banlist is for the allow us to evolve the game which is why I think the game is still played. XYZ era hasn't done anythign paticuar different. The synchro era went tubro by comparasion to the non synchro era lol.

Ohohoho, I definitely do know WHY they make strong and broken cards, as well as the point of the banlist... I just don't like their policies. But I know there's nothing I can do about it, so I just sit and complain XD
And I don't even think we're disagreeing on very much at all. You're right in that Zenmaighty and Rescue Cat are not all that different, and they both deserve to be banned (even though the kitteh's so cute). But while the cat was made long before synchros were even concieved, Zenmaighty was made with the Wind-Up loop in mind, which means Konami made it broken on purpose.
You're also very right in that the 5d's era was miles ahead of anything before it, the same way zexal era is today. Guess I'm just not a fan of xyz and happened to notice more things wrong with the game since they came out :/

lol, How do you know why there make strong cards? And why do they? lol How do you know zenmaighty was made with the intent of the hunter loop? This is the loop your refering to right? Isn't it possible it was an accident that was corrected. lol