TCG Banlist: January 2015

Forbidden:
Super Polymerization

Limited:
Artifact Moralltach
Dark Strike Fighter
Snatch Steal

Semi-Limited:
Honest
Goyo Guardian
Dark Hole

No Longer Limited:
Blackwing – Gale the Whirlwind
Mermail Abyssgunde
Reborn Tengu
Reasoning
The Transmigration Prophecy

https://ygorganization.wpengine.com/tcg-forbiddenlimited-list-january-1st-2015/
http://www.yugioh-card.com/en/limited/index.html

Snatch Steal is very Charmer-y.

I'm surprised people even still want to play Yu-Gi-Oh! anymore.

Hippocampus wrote:

I'm surprised people even still want to play Yu-Gi-Oh! anymore.

You did not say you quit yugioh. I will still play this game as long charmers exist.

hiita lover wrote:

You did not say you quit yugioh. I will still play this game as long charmers exist.

It's been common knowledge that I haven't played in the current meta for about half a year now. That doesn't mean I've ever quit Yugioh, though, because I haven't; I still play older formats and I still play CCG. It just means that I refuse to play in a format that is unrepairable, and frankly banlists like the one above disgust me.

Hippocampus wrote:

I'm surprised people even still want to play Yu-Gi-Oh! anymore.

Don't be surprised. You should know that not everyone has the same standards/preferences as yourself.

Eria wrote:

Don't be surprised. You should know that not everyone has the same standards/preferences as yourself.

Fair point, but I have yet to see a compelling enough argument from someone who actually disagrees with me and believes this format is beneficial to the game (and don't say Possession Release, as that card is technically not in the TCG yet).

^ Ask Konami.

That is like the trolliest thing I've ever heard you say lol

Hippocampus wrote:

Eria wrote:

Don't be surprised. You should know that not everyone has the same standards/preferences as yourself.

Fair point, but I have yet to see a compelling enough argument from someone who actually disagrees with me and believes this format is beneficial to the game (and don't say Possession Release, as that card is technically not in the TCG yet).

Ok
This game evolves because if it doesn't it becomes stale and dies. I know you liked the game as it first began so any deter from that you consider bad. Plus I think your thinking
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AvrBFlJeMs
Thing is, this game isn't for you and people like you only. Their are some really logical reasons for the choices they made.(I am referring to card making, not exactly this banlist)
Any changes to the game from Synchros, to XYZ to Pendium is all about evolving the game with the intent to make it more fun for all players. Do they fail sometimes? Sure but Konami is made of people, exactly when did you expect people not to fail? Remember they do this as a business, a business that has been working for over 10 years. I think they know a little bit.

As for fair? Well this list didn't sicken me? What about it sickened you? They hit some things I knew were problems. Why is that bad?

Wynn wrote:

This game evolves because if it doesn't it becomes stale and dies. I know you liked the game as it first began so any deter from that you consider bad. Plus I think your thinking
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AvrBFlJeMs

Exactly. No need to fix something that isn't broken, and evolution in this case is a form of fixing. And just because things don't change doesn't mean they become stale either - if that was the case, no one would hold onto any material item for longer than one year, even if it still was in excellent condition. There will always be people who value old things, and I just happen to be one of those people.
Staleness also comes from the fact that there is no change in mindset, but that is far from true in this game. Even now, people play old decks like Goat Format differently than they did 10 years ago because they've thought of new strategies to outwit their opponents, even though the card pool itself is exactly the same. This allows for just as new and diverse gameplay.

Wynn wrote:

Thing is, this game isn't for you and people like you only. Their are some really logical reasons for the choices they made.(I am referring to card making, not exactly this banlist)
Any changes to the game from Synchros, to XYZ to Pendium is all about evolving the game with the intent to make it more fun for all players. Do they fail sometimes? Sure but Konami is made of people, exactly when did you expect people not to fail? Remember they do this as a business, a business that has been working for over 10 years. I think they know a little bit.

Well "fun for all players" is in itself a wrong statement because everyone's version of fun is different and honestly you can't please everyone. There are some people who like fast games and some who like slow games, and when catering to both audiences neither side will be pleased. I sometimes wish they would drop the business aspect of Yugioh and just made cards for the sole sake of people's enjoyment. Then we wouldn't have things like insane power creep or game-breaking exclusives. Money is a terrible thing, really, and it makes more enemies than it does friends.

Wynn wrote:

As for fair? Well this list didn't sicken me? What about it sickened you? They hit some things I knew were problems. Why is that bad?

The list itself isn't as bad as the format that caused it. At one point, I actually did have faith in the TCG that they were going to make the game balanced again after they released that mega banlist, but the OCG of course didn't care about that and just released DUEA, which made the TCG respond with DRLG, and we were worse off than when we started.
If you want me to talk about the list itself... Snatch Steal is dumb, but it's not as bad as Dark Hole to 2. That proves that it'll go to 3 next format because no one's playing it anymore in favor of Raigeki. Monsters have no staying power anymore because they are destroyed as soon as they are played. That also explains why taking control of opponent's monsters is also not a big deal, since they won't last long anyway. Hence Snatch Steal to 1 and Goyo to 2, and I'm expecting next list Mind Control goes to 3. Goyo is a card with terrible design, and it's the only Level 6 people want to run because there's really no need for any other one. Reasoning is also bad design (arguably worse than Monster Gate because no cost), yet why not bring that back to 3. Artifacts and Shaddolls are the only thing I can see they "hit", yet Artifacts should have been hit long before this, not wait until now when they're no longer used. But hey the businesses don't care about that since they only recently stopped selling PRIO, and just like always there's no hit to the real threat Qliphorts because why hit a deck that is selling like hotcakes. If Konami dropped this game into the hands of the fanbase and left to go sell other products (because fyi, they sell a LOT more than just Yugioh cards) then stupid things like this wouldn't happen and I would complain a lot less.

Hippocampus wrote:

Wynn wrote:

This game evolves because if it doesn't it becomes stale and dies. I know you liked the game as it first began so any deter from that you consider bad. Plus I think your thinking
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AvrBFlJeMs

Exactly. No need to fix something that isn't broken, and evolution in this case is a form of fixing. And just because things don't change doesn't mean they become stale either - if that was the case, no one would hold onto any material item for longer than one year, even if it still was in excellent condition. There will always be people who value old things, and I just happen to be one of those people.
Staleness also comes from the fact that there is no change in mindset, but that is far from true in this game. Even now, people play old decks like Goat Format differently than they did 10 years ago because they've thought of new strategies to outwit their opponents, even though the card pool itself is exactly the same. This allows for just as new and diverse gameplay.

Wynn wrote:

Thing is, this game isn't for you and people like you only. Their are some really logical reasons for the choices they made.(I am referring to card making, not exactly this banlist)
Any changes to the game from Synchros, to XYZ to Pendium is all about evolving the game with the intent to make it more fun for all players. Do they fail sometimes? Sure but Konami is made of people, exactly when did you expect people not to fail? Remember they do this as a business, a business that has been working for over 10 years. I think they know a little bit.

Well "fun for all players" is in itself a wrong statement because everyone's version of fun is different and honestly you can't please everyone. There are some people who like fast games and some who like slow games, and when catering to both audiences neither side will be pleased. I sometimes wish they would drop the business aspect of Yugioh and just made cards for the sole sake of people's enjoyment. Then we wouldn't have things like insane power creep or game-breaking exclusives. Money is a terrible thing, really, and it makes more enemies than it does friends.

Wynn wrote:

As for fair? Well this list didn't sicken me? What about it sickened you? They hit some things I knew were problems. Why is that bad?

The list itself isn't as bad as the format that caused it. At one point, I actually did have faith in the TCG that they were going to make the game balanced again after they released that mega banlist, but the OCG of course didn't care about that and just released DUEA, which made the TCG respond with DRLG, and we were worse off than when we started.
If you want me to talk about the list itself... Snatch Steal is dumb, but it's not as bad as Dark Hole to 2. That proves that it'll go to 3 next format because no one's playing it anymore in favor of Raigeki. Monsters have no staying power anymore because they are destroyed as soon as they are played. That also explains why taking control of opponent's monsters is also not a big deal, since they won't last long anyway. Hence Snatch Steal to 1 and Goyo to 2, and I'm expecting next list Mind Control goes to 3. Goyo is a card with terrible design, and it's the only Level 6 people want to run because there's really no need for any other one. Reasoning is also bad design (arguably worse than Monster Gate because no cost), yet why not bring that back to 3. Artifacts and Shaddolls are the only thing I can see they "hit", yet Artifacts should have been hit long before this, not wait until now when they're no longer used. But hey the businesses don't care about that since they only recently stopped selling PRIO, and just like always there's no hit to the real threat Qliphorts because why hit a deck that is selling like hotcakes. If Konami dropped this game into the hands of the fanbase and left to go sell other products (because fyi, they sell a LOT more than just Yugioh cards) then stupid things like this wouldn't happen and I would complain a lot less.

Its funny because how easily you miss key points. Point being that this game is broken and was broken. It needed fixing. XyZ? Beautiful fix. Pendilum? I don't have as much faith. The point you miss is they aren't trying to break it. I mean think, if they break the game, people stop playing and it dies. They want people to play. They just now that more people want fast games than slow. So they move the game in that direction. Also my point had nothing to do with nostagia. I like old cards and decks too but what happens if the game doesn't change? It dies. How? Allow me to explain.
Imagine no change for 1 full year, no new cards, no new banlist. What happens? People stat sorting out what works and what doesn't(this is true if there s a OP deck or not.) In the end we gain a clear idea of what works. You go to a tournment and you lose unless you using what works. It no longer becomes a challenge to see what works. You grow bored and stop attending. Tournments lose memembers. Winners no longer have people to beat on, so they stop going. And everyone watches my little pony instead of going to the locals on saturday.

Ok, sure, people change there attitude and the game wouldn't grow stale. So what is konami to do? Control the cards or find the dragonballs and wish for people to not be asshats?

Missed a step hippo, didn't say they make it fun for all players, said the intent was to make it fun for all players. I mean they are a business so yeah they want money but I think there is a logic reason fo them to focus more on fun than money. WHich is, players that have fun tend to play more, or buy more cards. Sad fact to hippo, lots of people like seeing how badly they can beat someone using the new OP stuff before it is banned.

Power creep is natural. Like I said, if we know what wins than we don't care. Making something stronger than what previously existed is a easy way to fix that.

Ok what is bad about money? Don't get me wrong, I am not some hermit that hides it and hordes it. People that sa lines like that just confuse me. Like money is evil or something. Your a math major man, money is a bardoring tool. Sure some people may give it to much value but that is there problem. Better money hat trading food for clothing.

OCG=WIN OCG has duster! All hail OCG.
Don't worry they will mega ban again, they always do. Yeah snatch steal is kind of dumb. Funny enough with raigeki I didn't even run dark hole this format. I ran goyo but with the tightness of the extra I wouldn't run two. I don't run two of really any extra most times.
mind control to 3 now your just trolling me.
No reasoning might not get a monster monster gate is only ensured a monster because you give one up.

Don't lie, you don't want them to drop it in the hand of the whole fanbase just people like you. Because if they dopped it into the hands of the other 80% of players the list would like exactly the same as it does.

Yay, this turned into another debate thread that will probably never reach an agreement!

Wynn wrote:

Its funny because how easily you miss key points.

I think I've been told this enough. From now on, everyone automatically assume this when replying to me.

Wynn wrote:

Point being that this game is broken and was broken. It needed fixing. XyZ? Beautiful fix. Pendilum? I don't have as much faith. The point you miss is they aren't trying to break it. I mean think, if they break the game, people stop playing and it dies. They want people to play. They just now that more people want fast games than slow. So they move the game in that direction.

To be fair, I think the game officially became "broken" when they started introducing TCG exclusives. Was a while ago, but that was basically the official flag raised that let us know that Konami's only in it for the money and not for the state of a good game. And Xyz was a terrible addition to the game, but we've been over that already.

Wynn wrote:

Also my point had nothing to do with nostagia. I like old cards and decks too but what happens if the game doesn't change? It dies. How? Allow me to explain.
Imagine no change for 1 full year, no new cards, no new banlist. What happens? People stat sorting out what works and what doesn't(this is true if there s a OP deck or not.) In the end we gain a clear idea of what works. You go to a tournment and you lose unless you using what works. It no longer becomes a challenge to see what works. You grow bored and stop attending. Tournments lose memembers. Winners no longer have people to beat on, so they stop going. And everyone watches my little pony instead of going to the locals on saturday.

The thing is, that may have been true before the advent of the digital age. Now, we have things like Dueling Network, YGOPro/DevPro, and various other websites that allow people to play for fun, for free, whenever they want with anyone in the world. So you don't have to go to a tournament to play against people anymore; hell you don't even have to go to a tournament to organize a tournament anymore. Which means that the business aspect of the game could really die and no one would care because they still have access to the game and there is still a HUGE community online (the only people who would care are the people who actually invest in making money off of this game, most of which don't even play the game in the first place). If people stopped going to locals, it definitely doesn't mean the end of Yugioh, and I think that if they stopped making new cards it doesn't mean the end of Yugioh either.

Wynn wrote:

Ok, sure, people change there attitude and the game wouldn't grow stale. So what is konami to do? Control the cards or find the dragonballs and wish for people to not be asshats?

As I mentioned, Konami owns a lot more products than just Yugioh, and they're making new games all the time. Read this if you don't believe me. I'm sure they wouldn't go bankrupt just because they stopped selling one of their products.

Wynn wrote:

Missed a step hippo, didn't say they make it fun for all players, said the intent was to make it fun for all players.

Actually, it is you who misinterpreted me now. My point was not that they didn't have intent to make it fun for all players - it's that that's exactly why they are failing in my eyes. I said before that they can't please everyone, so if they TRY to please everyone, it will not work.

Wynn wrote:

I mean they are a business so yeah they want money but I think there is a logic reason fo them to focus more on fun than money. WHich is, players that have fun tend to play more, or buy more cards. Sad fact to hippo, lots of people like seeing how badly they can beat someone using the new OP stuff before it is banned.

Again, if they didn't focus on money, then they would make a lot of different choices in the cards they created, and ultimately the banlist as well. And yes, people do like using OP cards and strategies, but if they didn't exist in the first place then the thought of using them wouldn't even enter our heads

Wynn wrote:

Power creep is natural. Like I said, if we know what wins than we don't care. Making something stronger than what previously existed is a easy way to fix that.

Making something stronger than what previously existed is only a temporary way to fix that. But it's not the only way.

Wynn wrote:

Ok what is bad about money? Don't get me wrong, I am not some hermit that hides it and hordes it. People that sa lines like that just confuse me. Like money is evil or something. Your a math major man, money is a bardoring tool. Sure some people may give it to much value but that is there problem. Better money hat trading food for clothing.

HAHAHAHAHA this made me laugh. One day I will talk to you about this, but it's a bit too offtopic for this thread.

Wynn wrote:

OCG=WIN OCG has duster! All hail OCG.

I have nothing to say to this. Go move to Japan, Wynn

Wynn wrote:

Don't worry they will mega ban again, they always do.

No offense, but I'd rather play in a game where the entirety of the card pool and power level is contained within a certain limit instead of a game where you play ridiculous garbage for a year or so and then lose access to everything you have.

Wynn wrote:

Funny enough with raigeki I didn't even run dark hole this format.

And this proves that Dark Hole goes to 3 next format.

Wynn wrote:

I ran goyo but with the tightness of the extra I wouldn't run two. I don't run two of really any extra most times.

And this proves that Goyo goes to 3 next format.

Wynn wrote:

mind control to 3 now your just trolling me.

You yourself just said that you didn't run Dark Hole with Raigeki around, because Dark Hole is a worse Raigeki. Well, Mind Control is a worse Snatch Steal, is it not?

Wynn wrote:

No reasoning might not get a monster monster gate is only ensured a monster because you give one up.

The problem still lies with the massive mill from your deck. With Reasoning at 3, you can potentially send half of your deck to the graveyard in one game depending on what you play. Even if there's nothing you can do with the Spells or Traps that hit the grave (sans Magician of Faith or Mask of Darkness to retrieve them), you still gain access to the other cards in your deck that much faster.

Wynn wrote:

Don't lie, you don't want them to drop it in the hand of the whole fanbase just people like you. Because if they dopped it into the hands of the other 80% of players the list would like exactly the same as it does.

Actually, you'd be surprised. A lot of people I've talked to would prefer to keep the power level of the game constant and wouldn't have thought to introduce stuff on the scale of Shaddolls and Qliphorts.

Also congrats on becoming Intermediate Charmer